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Teaching the laws at the table

#81 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 16:35

View Postmycroft, on 2012-January-27, 16:28, said:

I have been known to call and say "I'm sure the player did everything correctly, but this situation occurred, and I just want to make sure we all agree on the facts." Sometimes, it's been because I was reserving my rights, and sometimes it was (as the other opponent has occasionally remarked) "he just wanted to let you know that there are issues when you bid after my long hesitation." I just smile - and I won't tell you which is which :-).


Is this an ACBL thing, that you cannot agree facts without a director present?
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#82 User is online   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 16:52

Maybe it is just an ACBL thing where we tell the Director what we know, don't know, agree to, and don't agree with on the facts of the matter...then let him/her do his/her job.
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#83 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 16:58

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-January-29, 16:52, said:

Maybe it is just an ACBL thing where we tell the Director what we know, don't know, agree to, and don't agree with on the facts of the matter...then let him/her do his/her job.


You mean when you don't agree on the facts? Yes, the director has to be called in every jurisdiction when that happens. But in many places facts, eg a break in tempo, can be agreed without the director's presence.
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#84 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 18:16

View PostVampyr, on 2012-January-29, 16:34, said:

Why not? If you know they are wrong, simply ask them to read out the law to you.


Last time I asked a club director to do that, she declined, on the grounds that "the book is in the car". :(
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#85 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 18:19

View PostVampyr, on 2012-January-29, 16:34, said:

This incident was rather strange, but I do tend to think that a declarer knows what he said, even if no one else has understood him clearly. I have found that I sometimes swallow "top" or "high" and it can easily be missed.


Perhaps so, but it is up to the director at the table to decide, on the preponderance of the evidence.
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#86 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 19:40

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-January-29, 18:16, said:

Last time I asked a club director to do that, she declined, on the grounds that "the book is in the car". :(

I thought most directors arrived at the table with the Laws in hand.
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#87 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-29, 20:20

In England, they're taught that, so they probably do. They're taught that in these forums, too, but the only local director who reads these forums, AFAIK, is me. As I've mentioned before, club directors in North America aren't really taught much of anything, unless they manage to find a mentor somewhere, and even then they may not be taught to bring the law book to the table. Couple that with players' impatience with "wasting time" looking things up in the book and, well, you see where this is going, I'm sure. ;)

It seems to be a point of pride among some directors in NA that they "don't need" the law book, because they have at least the commonly referenced laws memorized. :blink: :huh: :(
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#88 User is offline   mjj29 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 04:40

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-January-29, 20:20, said:

It seems to be a point of pride among some directors in NA that they "don't need" the law book, because they have at least the commonly referenced laws memorized. :blink: :huh: :(

Where as I see it as a much better 'point of pride' not to get rulings wrong (not that I always succeed either, of course)
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#89 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 07:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-January-29, 20:20, said:

It seems to be a point of pride among some directors in NA that they "don't need" the law book, because they have at least the commonly referenced laws memorized. :blink: :huh: :(

Some of our TD's here in NA do carry the law book but that can be deceptive. We had a call at our table where the TD came over carrying the law book but made a ruling without referencing the book. So what you say, he must have known the law without the need for the book. When he was asked to read the relevant law from the book he first went off to ask another TD where to find the law. WTH???!!

OTOH other TD's do carry the law book and are happy to open it and read from it, I wish all did.


My latest forray into "teaching the laws at the table" happened at the sectional this weekend. Playing team match against B/C players, not newbies! Their auction 1 1 1nt 2 pass pass I look over at their CC to see that nmf is checked, my partner picks up their CC. 3rd pass, nothing is said about the failure to alert and they play in 2 rather than their contract. No damage this time tyvm but what do you suggest we should do here? IMO calling the TD now is ludicrous and will make it more uncomfortable for the opps no matter how you try to conceal the meaning for your td call.
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#90 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 08:02

View Postjillybean, on 2012-January-30, 07:23, said:

... what do you suggest we should do here?
Defend the hand, collect your good score and move along. It appears that one of them forgot they were playing nmf; it would be rude of you to do or say anything about this.
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#91 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 08:07

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-January-30, 08:02, said:

Defend the hand, collect your good score and move along. It appears that one of them forgot they were playing nmf; it would be incredibly rude of you to do or say anything about this.

We have another 7 boards to play against these opponents. One of them forgot they were playing nmf but apparently remembered after the auction ended but still didn't say anything. The other forgot or didn't know we should be told that there has been a failure to alert before we make our lead. No damage this time but perhaps next time we will be, is it best to wait until we are damaged?

edit.. I know we can't be teaching laws at the table without running the risk of making our own, incorrect rulings and other reasons regarding etiquette and manners. I feel it leaves me in an impossible situation where I can't say anything or call the TD without being a pain in the ass but leaving it until there is damage is unsatisfactory as well.
The solution: play in A/X :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#92 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 08:18

Yes
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#93 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 08:50

View Postmjj29, on 2012-January-30, 04:40, said:

Where as I see it as a much better 'point of pride' not to get rulings wrong (not that I always succeed either, of course)


Oh, I agree with you 100 percent.

We have a club director here who never gets a ruling wrong. Don't believe me? Just ask him! :rolleyes:
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#94 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 10:04

View Postjillybean, on 2012-January-30, 08:07, said:

We have another 7 boards to play against these opponents. One of them forgot they were playing nmf but apparently remembered after the auction ended but still didn't say anything. The other forgot or didn't know we should be told that there has been a failure to alert before we make our lead.

When it's my legal opportunity to ask questions (before the lead if I'm opening leader, otherwise after partner makes his face-down lead), I usually ask "Was there a failure to alert 2?" I believe this is necessary to comply with ACBL's regulation that says experienced players should try to protect themselves if they think there has been misinformation due to a failure to alert.

#95 User is online   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 10:41

"Was there a failure to alert?" is quite commonly used as Barmar does. But, going along with the thrust of this thread, I feel awkward phrasing it that way. I say something like, "Was ... a natural bid?" And if it wasn't, "Oh, I didn't hear the alert." (If they haven't already apologized for failing to alert).
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#96 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 12:10

Vampyr: prior to the current Lawbook, the ACBL regulation was that the TD must be summonned on transmission of UI, so that the opponents know what their options are. This has changed, but still the TD will be called "just to note" much more often than is common in the EBU. People are used to it, and it doesn't cause too much of a problem. Certainly it causes less of a problem than some of the obnoxious ways some people use to gain agreement of the facts.

In education cases, of course, the whole point is that it's clear that they *don't know* what their responsibilities are - or their rights, for that matter. At which point, "agreeing the facts" will damage the opponents, because they don't understand to what they're agreeing anyway.
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#97 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 12:43

View Postmycroft, on 2012-January-30, 12:10, said:

Vampyr: prior to the current Lawbook, the ACBL regulation was that the TD must be summonned on transmission of UI, so that the opponents know what their options are. This has changed, but still the TD will be called "just to note" much more often than is common in the EBU. People are used to it, and it doesn't cause too much of a problem. Certainly it causes less of a problem than some of the obnoxious ways some people use to gain agreement of the facts.

In education cases, of course, the whole point is that it's clear that they *don't know* what their responsibilities are - or their rights, for that matter. At which point, "agreeing the facts" will damage the opponents, because they don't understand to what they're agreeing anyway.


Thanks for the clarification. I don't understand the last part, though. Why would opponents agree something if they didn't understand what they were being asked to agree?

You ask, for example, "Do you agree that 3 was slow?", and a person will not say "yes" unless they understand what you have said.
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#98 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 13:43

View PostVampyr, on 2012-January-30, 12:43, said:

Thanks for the clarification. I don't understand the last part, though. Why would opponents agree something if they didn't understand what they were being asked to agree?

You ask, for example, "Do you agree that 3 was slow?", and a person will not say "yes" unless they understand what you have said.


You're asking "why would someone do something stupid?" People do stupid things all the time, including agreeing to something they don't understand.

If I had a nickel for every time a North American bridge player has initialed a pickup slip, thereby agreeing to the scores on it, without having actually read it, I could move back to Hawai'i and live in comfort there.

Besides, it's not whether partner's bid was slow that they don't understand, it's the ramifications of that fact.
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#99 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 14:25

Do you agree partner's bid was slow? Yes.

Do you agree that as a result, you have Unauthorized Information, and you must carefully avoid using that Unauthorized information (and that "what I always would have bid" isn't carefully avoiding), throughout the rest of the auction and play, and that if I think it's possible you didn't follow that to the letter, I can call the TD to get an adjusted result? And do you realize that as the transmitter of the UI, you are *not* under those restrictions - and that it's not, actually, wrong to have to think about a hand?

Uh, what?

But by "reserving one's rights" or "agreeing we have a slow call", you're asking that entire litany of questions, and probably more that I can't think of off the top of my head. But I bet there are thousands of bridge players who don't know what that "entire litany" is - and they're just going to answer the question asked. And that puts them in a disadvantageous position that is unwelcome (unless you're the kind of player who likes having those kinds of ethically dubious advantages - which I'm sure none of the people here are, but we all know one!)

When playing in the rare air of Flight A, one can assume that we all know the whole game. Others' club games may be different, but I wouldn't expect the C pairs to understand it all.
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#100 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-January-30, 14:27

The other side of the coin is that the C players are quite likely not to agree there was a hesitation, because they weren't paying attention in the first place. Of course, now you tell them they should call the TD, and they won't.
--------------------
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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