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2/1 Game Force Alerts In EBU

#1 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 05:38

I think I know the answer to this is yes, but I'm a little confused reading the regulations and wanted to check I was right in my understanding.

Partner and I are just about to start playing 2/1 and I wanted to check that I understand the alerting regulations correctly. Looking at the Tangerine Book it says:

Quote

Unless you must announce it, a pass or bid must be alerted if it is not natural, or it is natural but has a potentially unexpected meaning.


I have had a look at the Orange Book as well and it says:

Quote

Note that in the earlier rounds of bidding a natural suit bid usually shows at least four cards


I take this to mean the first 2 rounds? But then it says:

Quote

(1) 1♣ or 1♦ showing three plus cards, not forcing, which are considered
natural


By now I'm getting a bit confused, but that's not unusual :).

Anyway, I take all this to mean that any 2/1 GF bid, even with 3 cards, should be alerted? Is this correct?

On a side note, I have been playing predominantly 5-card majors, better minor, based in SAYC since I started playing just over a year ago and I have noticed that this seems to catch out some of our opponents as it isn't generally played in the clubs that I have joined. By now most regular players know this and some check before we start. Should we, in the interests of equity, pre-alert our SAYC and 2/1 systems?

Thanks in advance,

Simon
Still looking for a regular real world partner to play 2/1 or SAYC in Dorset area, willing to travel.
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#2 User is online   campboy 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 05:55

You do not need to alert 3+ minor openings (OB 5G3c1). You do need to alert GF 2/1 responses (OB 5G2c6).
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#3 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 06:19

View PostSimonFa, on 2011-December-13, 05:38, said:

On a side note, I have been playing predominantly 5-card majors, better minor, based in SAYC since I started playing just over a year ago and I have noticed that this seems to catch out some of our opponents as it isn't generally played in the clubs that I have joined. By now most regular players know this and some check before we start. Should we, in the interests of equity, pre-alert our SAYC and 2/1 systems?


The EBU rules don't include the concept of a pre-alert, but I think you should (in the non-legal sense) tell them about it when you arrive at the table. That's mainly in the interest of having a good game of bridge.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#4 User is offline   mjj29 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 06:26

View Postgnasher, on 2011-December-13, 06:19, said:

The EBU rules don't include the concept of a pre-alert, but I think you should (in the non-legal sense) tell them about it when you arrive at the table. That's mainly in the interest of having a good game of bridge.

EBU pre-alerting is handled by exchanging convention cards at the start of the round. In a lot of clubs people (usually those playing a fairly simple ACOL variant) don't bother with system cards, but they should and since you are playing something unusual I think you should ensure you have them and make them available to the opponents at the start of each round. The EBU proscribed system card format is available on the EBU website.

campboy has already answered the alerting questions during the round.
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 07:25

View Postcampboy, on 2011-December-13, 05:55, said:

You do not need to alert 3+ minor openings (OB 5G3c1). You do need to alert GF 2/1 responses (OB 5G2c6).

And what about when opener rebids a 3-card minor (i.e.after a forcing 1NT) ?
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#6 User is online   campboy 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 09:46

View Postbillw55, on 2011-December-13, 07:25, said:

And what about when opener rebids a 3-card minor (i.e.after a forcing 1NT) ?

Not alertable. OB 5G3h.
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#7 User is offline   Jeremy69A 

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Posted 2011-December-13, 10:57

The advice above about what to alert is exactly correct.
I'm puzzled at why a possible 3 card minor should catch anyone out. Would their bidding agreements change? Would they defend differently? Are just whining for the sake of it? I think I can guess the answer however I agree with the advice above. I think whatever you are playing a brief announcement of your basic system along the lines of "Good Evening. We play Strong NT,5 card Majors and better minor" is a good idea and one that has become more common in England in the last 3 or 4 years.

As an aside that gets one of the following response types

1. Thanks
2. Thanks. We are playing Benji Acol, 12-14
3. Partner how could you play a spade? The defence of a cretin if I may say so without giving offence.
4. Completely ignored because they are deaf
5. Completely ignored or muttered thank you with no reciprocation and then you find out that they play Croatian Spade with inverted major suit transfer raises and have no convention card. Calling the director in such circumstances is marginally less effective than trying to whittle a rowing boat out of a giant sequoia with a blunt penknife. :D
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#8 User is offline   dburn 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 06:32

View Postmjj29, on 2011-December-13, 06:26, said:

The EBU proscribed system card format is available on the EBU website.

Not exactly. There is however a link to the ecats site, from which the EBU proscribed system card can be downloaded.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 07:23

View Postdburn, on 2011-December-15, 06:32, said:

Not exactly. There is however a link to the ecats site, from which the EBU proscribed system card can be downloaded.


Why would one want to download a proscribed system card? Is it so necessary to have a written record of the methods you aren't allowed to play?
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#10 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 07:33

View PostVampyr, on 2011-December-15, 07:23, said:

Why would one want to download a proscribed system card? Is it so necessary to have a written record of the methods you aren't allowed to play?

It's the card that's proscribed, not the methods.
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#11 User is offline   jnichols 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 07:43

The EBU card is certainly proscribed here in the ACBL
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 08:08

View Postgordontd, on 2011-December-15, 07:33, said:

It's the card that's proscribed, not the methods.


Well, I suppose I must be grateful that I have got away with using it so far.

View Postjnichols, on 2011-December-15, 07:43, said:

The EBU card is certainly proscribed here in the ACBL


As I understand it, even the WBF card is proscribed there.
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 11:50

All cards except the official ACBL card or substantial look-alikes are proscribed here. I sometimes think the purpose of this regulation is to disallow methods which, though otherwise legal, are difficult at best to describe on the card.
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 13:22

View Postblackshoe, on 2011-December-15, 11:50, said:

All cards except the official ACBL card or substantial look-alikes are proscribed here. I sometimes think the purpose of this regulation is to disallow methods which, though otherwise legal, are difficult at best to describe on the card.


The ACBL card is so small and has so much unnecessary printing on it that I would be surprised if any methods could be adequately described on it.
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 13:30

Frankly, for available space and "openness" (meaning not restricting options to a couple of checkboxes) I like the WBF card, with the EBU one a close second. As for adequately describing methods on the ACBL card, the way many people here fill it out (or in same cases don't fill it out) doesn't help.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
Factor in Alzheimers, and I can not recall a bad result from aggessive action in this situation. -- Aguahombre
When I look through the hand records after a club evening, the boards I didn't play are always the ones where I would have done great. -- Cherdano
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#16 User is offline   jnichols 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 13:37

View Postdburn, on 2011-December-15, 06:32, said:

Not exactly. There is however a link to the ecats site, from which the EBU proscribed system card can be downloaded.


I think that is the prescribed EBU card, rather than a proscribed one.

(so much for our little diversion)
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#17 User is offline   Jeremy69A 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 17:14

Quote

Not exactly. There is however a link to the ecats site, from which the EBU proscribed system card can be downloaded.



I think you are in error, Mr B. Try this link http://www.ebu.co.uk...entioncards.htm and you will find all the EBU cards you could ever want(but no proscribed ones)!
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#18 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 17:58

View PostJeremy69A, on 2011-December-15, 17:14, said:

I think you are in error, Mr B. Try this link http://www.ebu.co.uk...entioncards.htm and you will find all the EBU cards you could ever want(but no proscribed ones)!

I think he was referring to the WBF convention card, which can be downloaded from the Ecats site via a link from the EBU site, but not directly from the EBU site (because, in most EBU events, it is proscribed).

I bet if David had realised it would create this much difficulty in understanding, he wouldn't have made his response to Matt's typo!
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#19 User is offline   Jeremy69A 

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Posted 2011-December-15, 18:21

Quote



I see what you mean. He certainly confused me! The WBF card is allowed in a few more EBU events than it used to be and is covered by this on the EBU Website:


Official WBF Cards for international use
Please note that the WBF cards are only for use in International events, trials etc. They may be used in Level 5 events but their use is not permitted in EBU events below this level.
The programs to create the official WBF card can all be found by clicking here.
Also on that page are blank WBF cards in Word and Excel format, together with links to information about Brown Sticker bids, the Guide to completion of the card etc. Links from this page also go to the latest versions of WBF Systems Policy, the WBF Alerting Policy and the WBF Policy on Psychic Bidding.


The sign of the devil that used to be found here has now been removed. :D
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#20 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2011-December-17, 11:25

View Postbillw55, on 2011-December-13, 07:25, said:

And what about when opener rebids a 3-card minor (i.e.after a forcing 1NT) ?


View Postcampboy, on 2011-December-13, 09:46, said:

Not alertable. OB 5G3h.


I disagree. OB 5G3h says one should not alert "An ostensibly natural new suit rebid that may on occasion only contain three cards". As I understand it, this covers situations like bidding (uncontested) 1-1-2 on say Axx AQx AK10xxx x ,which many players would bid playing with any partner, discussed or not.

On the other hand, if a pair agrees to play a forcing 1NT response, Opener is forced by the system to bid 2 on a 5323 or a 5233 shape. These represent a singificant proportion of 2 rebids in this sequence. I play this system with one partner. My opponents might reasonably expect an unalerted 2 bid to show 4+ clubs in this sequence, and I therefore alert 2 when it comes up.
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