BBO Discussion Forums: Bid even better than you did before (1N responses) - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Bid even better than you did before (1N responses)

#1 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:54

With apologies to Ron Klinger for the thread title, this series follows a spate of other threads on this subject to which I have contributed minimally in a rather negative context. Hopefully this will appear more constructive.

There follows a series of articles describing my preferred continuations following a 1N opening bid by a non-passed hand in an uncontested auction. In the foregoing sentence there arise already two important points worth mentioning:

1) Non-passed hand
-----------------------
The first is that it is likely that whether or not responder is a passed hand is an issue that will affect the optimal continuations. The effect will be more marked the weaker the range of the 1N opener. Whatever the range, within reason, responder will never have a slam try when a passed hand. Opposite a weak 1N opener he will seldom have values for game. To have such values he would normally require sufficient distributional features to justify some pre-emptive action inconsistent with his initial pass.

Personally I make minimal adjustments to the continuations that follow when responder is a passed hand, despite my own preference for a weak 1N opener. The weak and invitational responder mechanisms are pretty robust, and consistency reduces stress on the memory. There are some minor, obvious changes and I shall try to mention them.

2) Uncontested auction
--------------------------
The second is that whilst these continuations do not discuss intervention after competition, the prospect of a contested auction should not be ignored in their design. Generally a system is less vulnerable to competition when like hand types are as far as possible lumped into the same bid, so that in the event of a contested auction there is some positive feature that partner can reliably assume that you hold. This also reduces stress on the memory.

Organisation of this thread
------------------------------
Hopefully the "Non-Natural System Discussion" forum is the most appropriate place to post it. The 1N opener itself could not be more natural, but the responses most certainly are not, and they certainly need not be restricted to SAYC or 2/1 systems.

No system of continuations can bid all hands accurately, and this one is no exception. Rather than pretend that all is rosy and let you hunt around for the weaknesses I hope to identify most of them for you, either as I go or at the end.

I start with the high level responses and work down. This is the sensible way of dealing with it as they get progressively more complex as the available bidding space increases, and the more complicated sequences are easier to grasp if you already have a grasp of the rest of the system. Particular sets of similar responses are enclosed within a single dedicated message
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:55

Very high level responses
------------------------------
1N - 3N is to play. Some might fancy 3S as transfer to 3N (as they do in some systems in response to 2N). I don't want to go there. The risk of a double of 3S is ever-present (although it can be helpful), and I prefer a method where opener is showing something by bidding 3N over 3S response, with the option of bypassing to show something else. Some would also object to 3S transfer on the grounds of memory strain, but that is a weak argument in my view.

4+ level continuations can be imported from your favourite methods without significant impact on or interference with the lower level responses.

I would however suggest that there is no point in using 1N-4N as quantitative. Balanced slam tries start with 2C response (detailed later).

I quite like 1N-4M to play. It may wrong-side the contract but there is no guarantee of that, and it is far more pre-emptive than 4-level transfers that allow the next seat a cheap and relatively risk-free double. On the other hand, 4-level transfers allow some slam-going hands to be included in the initial response, without denying the opportunity to play in 4M without slam interest, and a 4-level transfer, whilst less pre-emptive than 4M to play, is certainly more pre-emptive than an initial response at the 2 level followed up by a game bid.

I fancy using the slam-going 4 level responses as some sort of void-showing exclusion control ask or RKCV. The difference between a singleton and void can be critical in the slam zone, and if as responder you just want specific information to pinpoint the final spot I would prefer to take some pressure off lower level continuations.

Responder would have no doubts about the correct trump denomination, to embark on an immediate 4-level slam try response. If RKCV then the trump suit must also be expressed, and this is the scheme that I came up with. It is not the easiest to remember, and combined with its very low frequency it requires revision before the event:

Mnemonics for setting the trump suit are:
With a Club suit, 4S is always used as the RKCV bid.
With a Diamond suit, 4N is always used as the RKCV bid.
With a Heart suit, one of 4N or 5C are always used as the RKCV bid.
With a Spade suit, 5C is always used as the RKCV bid.

The route to the RKCV bid determines the void, the mnemonics of which are:
Immediate 4S/4N response show a void in one minor, trumps being the other minor.
Starting with 4C (puppet to 4D) promises a black suit void (NB, not Club void with Diamond trumps, as this is direct 4N response)
Starting with 4C and following with 4H (puppet to 4S) clarifies that the black shortage is Clubs (1N-4C-4D-4S+ promising Spades short)
Starting with 4D (puppet to 4H) promises H short (unless you pass 4H!)
Starting with 4H (puppet to 4S) promises D short (unless you pass 4S!) NB not combined with a long Club suit as that would be a direct 4S response

You have to mess around with the RKCV continuations a bit: you don't want a sign-out in the trump suit to be ambiguous. Suggest that when a response to RKCV that coincides with the the trump suit would otherwise be ambiguous as to the number of key cards you tack the stronger option on the end as the 5th step response.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#3 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:55

1N-3H/3S responses
------------------------
1N-3H = non-forcing but invitational, at least 5-5 in the Majors
1N-3S = forcing, at least 5-5 in the minors.

Whether 1N-3S should be game-forcing or conversely simply forcing is a matter for agreement. It certainly makes the subsequent continuations simpler if it is GF, but reduces the accuracy on hands with that distribution that are just short of GF values. I would probably GF on those hands anyway, heh heh. On hands with that distribution which are not strong enough to force beyond 3m you cannot guarantee showing both minors in this system. You can show one of them (see the 1N-2H response structure), presumably Diamonds, in a non-forcing context and then if opener makes another move and you really don't fancy 3N you can show the other.

Game-invitational hands with 5-5 in the majors are divided into two ranges in this system, and the 1N-3H response is used to show the stronger of the two.

When both hands are balanced, the range of responder's high card values that qualifies as invitational is very narrow. With extreme distribution the range is wide, and benefits from splitting into two subranges. It would be nice to be able to do this with 5M-5m hand types but sadly I cannot fit them into this system without giving up something that I would prefer to keep. At least with 5-5 in the Majors there are more possible game contracts compared with 5M-5m hands, as either 4M contract is a possibility, and it is therefore more important to divide the ranges with both Majors than with other distributional hands. As I just about have room to make the distinction without giving up anything else I choose to do so on this occasion.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#4 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:57

1N-2N/3C/3D responses
----------------------------
2N and 3C are puppets to 3C and 3D respectively, which responder may then pass with a weak take-out. All other continuations are game forcing.

Following the puppet, 3H+ show single-suited GF hands with a long minor (the minor bid by opener, ie same suit as the weak take-out hands). The choice of 3H+ rebid by responder pinpoints a side suit shortage. 3H can be a two-way bid showing either (1) no shortage or (2) a specific shortage. 3S shows another specific shortage, and 3N+ shows the remaining specific shortage. The ordering of the shortages is not particularly important, governed more by mnemonics than by technical issues, although you can possibly come up with obscure reasons for a particular ordering.
If 3H is used as the two-way option (no shortage or specific shortage) then opener bids 3S if encouraged in favour of a suit contract (and possible slam) by the location of the shortage. With wasted values opposite the shortage opener would rebid 3N.

An immediate response of 3D shows at least 4 cards in each minor, and either 2-2-5-4 shape or a specific Major shortage. If short in a Major then it is possible that responder has 4 cards in the other Major (ie 4441 shape). Furthermore, with unequal length in the minors either minor may be longer (except when 2-2 in the Majors).

1N-2N-3C-3D shows the same hand type as 1N-3D but with the Majors reversed and the minors reversed. In other words, either 2-2-4-5 shape or with the other specific Major short.

It is of little importance, other than by reason of mnemonics, which route shows which Major shortage.

After 1N-(2N-3C-)3D:

3H = lack of wasted values opposite the suggested Major short
3S = wasted values opposite the suggested Major short, but with 4 cards in the other Major
3N = wasted values opposite the suggested Major short and without 4 cards in the other Major.

After 1N-(2N-3C-)3D-3H:
3S = 2-2 in the Majors
3N = short Major, denies 4 cards in other Major, limited
4C = short Major, 4 cards in other Major
4D+= as 3N but too strong to risk 3N being passed.

I have to accept that it is rather cumbersome catering for the 2-2-4-5 and 2-2-5-4 hands in these sequences. By some tortuous Kata it is possible, but if you exclude that possibility it certainly makes the subsequent continuations easier.

However, this is the only place (in this system of continuations) where responder can elect to show these distributions should he choose to describe this shape (all other 5422 hands can be described with much greater ease). There is, in my opinion, a considerable difference between hand 1 and hand 2 as below
Hand 1
AK
AK
xxxx
xxxxx

Hand 2
xx
xx
AKxx
AKxxx

In terms of absolute playing strength the hands are clearly unequal, hand 2 being the stronger. Yet hand 1 remains worth game. Hand 1 should just respond 3N. But I would be reluctant to do the same with hand 2, which has so much more potential, provided that partner has a minor fit and his Major honours are by way of controls rather than quacks. You could treat hand 2 as a balanced slam try, but I think that the hand remains better described by responder.

This is not a big issue. It is sufficiently infrequent for responder to have such a narrow range of values so heavily concentrated in the minors with that precise shape as to cause a problem worth the devotion of system, and it is largely up to the user whether to go for a simplified arrangement in these responses (that exclude the 2-2 in the Majors)
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#5 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:57

1N-2H/2S responses
------------------------
Each of the 2H/2S responses is two-way, showing either a game invitation or a game forcing hand type. The game invitational hand types are entirely different from the GF hand types. Each bid is a one-round force.

Game invitational hand types are:
2H = fewer than 5 Spades and fewer than 4 Hearts
2S = 4 Hearts and fewer than 4 Spades

Game forcing hand types are:
2H = 4 Spades, longer Hearts
2S = 4 Hearts, longer Spades
(these bids could be reversed in meaning if desired, for mnemonic or whatever reason).

Opener's rebid must be below the level of 3D. He makes his most natural bid at the 2 level with a minimum hand that has no certainty of a major suit trump fit, or bids 3C with a maximum or assured fit, thus:
1N-2H-2S = minimum opener with 4 Spades
1N-2H-2N = minimum opener with fewer than 4 Spades
1N-2H-3C = any maximum opener
1N-2S-2N = minimum opener with fewer than 4 Hearts
1N-2S-3C = maximum opener OR 4 Hearts

Responder's rebids are:
With invitational hand, make most natural bid available below 3H (pass being possible at 2 level, but available options will be limited by the amount of space consumed by opener's rebid). Bid at 3H+ with the GF hand types.
1N-2M-??-3H+ = GF hand type. Pinpoint minor short (or deny)
1N-2M-3C-3D = Any invitational hand consistent with 2M response.
Other rebids by responder are natural with an a priori invitational hand (pass permitted at 2 level).

Some final observations on the 1N-2M responses:

If there is a 4-4 Spade fit and opener is minimum opposite an invitational responder then you get to play in 2S. Those playing standard Stayman will normally commit to 3S in order to show the game try. If there is instead a 4-4 Heart fit then, as with the Stayman bidders, this system commits to 3H. There are other systems emerging that allow you to play in 2H with a game try opposite a minimum with a 4-4 fit, and I acknowledge that those systems may gain when that hand arises and 8 tricks is the limit. There is a cost that has to be paid for that privilege, and you have to look at the entire system in the round before deciding whether the cost is too high a price to pay.

If responder has an invitational hand with a long minor, then he does not get to show the minor if opener is maximum. But you will intend to play in 3N in the absence of a Major suit fit, so no great loss there. However, if opener is minimum then you do get to play in 3m rather than 2N (or you can still choose to play in 2N, ie at MP scoring, the choice is entirely up to responder). Furthermore, if responder has 4M and longer minor, invitational, then you get to investigate the Major fit and, when opener denies a Major fit and shows a minimum opener, you can still bail out into 3m.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#6 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 17:58

1N-2D response
-------------------
2D response shows more than 3 Spades and fewer than 5 Hearts.
If responder lacks game forcing values he will have more than 4 Spades.
If responder has at least invitational values he will have fewer than 4 Hearts.
If responder has at least GF values he will be unbalanced (5332 being an optional exception, the alternative with that shape being to treat it as a bal GF and respond 2C, for which the continuations are specified in the next message. You can still investigate the 5-3 Spade fit).

Opener's rebids are:
1N-2D-2H = maximum with fewer than 4 Spades
1N-2D-2S = minimum with fewer than 4 Spades
1N-2D-2N+ = more than 3 Spades.
(You could swap the 2H/2S rebids according to preference)

It is necessary at this point to defer until the next message any detailed discussion of the 1N-2D-2N+ continuations. Were there no other matters to consider the continuations would be trivial to design: A Spade fit is guaranteed (at least a 9 card fit if responder lacks GF values), and you have a huge amount of bidding space to show shortages, second suits, re-transfers, min v max clarification etc. The complication, however, is that there are some parallels with the 1N-2C-2S+ continuations that will be discussed in the next message, but there are also some differences. In the interests of reducing strain on memory it is a good idea for the continuations to be the same after both starting points (or as close as possible). For that to be practical we need to consider the differences between 1N-2C-2S+ and 1N-2D-2N+, and those differences will only become apparent in the next message.

I shall spend a bit of time here on the 1N-2D-2M continuations:

1N-2D-2H-2S = to play
1N-2D-2S-Pass = optional
That caters for the weak take-out hands and ALSO the invitational hands opposite a minimum opener.
If responder has a game try and opener has indicated a maximum opener, then responder upgrades his hand to GF and bids according to the GF continuations.
1N-2D-2M-2N+ = GF according to the following scheme:

2N = puppet to 3C showing more than 3 Clubs. Continuations are as for 3D+ but with the minors reversed.
3C = single-suited in Spades (could be 5332)
3D+ = more than 3 Diamonds

Single-suited hands
Responder has rebid 1N-2D-2M-3C, over which 3D is a relay, then:
3H = no minor suit shortage (3S asks for Heart shortage, 3N denying)
3S = Specific minor short
3N+ = other specific minor short

With a Spade-minor 2-suiter:
1N-2D-2M-(2N-3C)-:
3D = (1) no short (ie 5422, either longer) or (2) 4 card minor, longer Major, short other Major
3H = minor suit shortage (defined by whether or not via 2N-3C) (then 3S asks for 5th card in the major)
3S = 4 card Major, short other Major (longer minor defined by whether or not via 2N-3C)
3N+ = at least 5-5 in Major-minor (minor defined by whether or not via 2N-3C)

1N-2D-2M-(2N-3C)-3D-:
3H = relay, implying lack of wastage opposite potential Major shortage
3S = relay, implying wastage opposite potential Major short, but with 3 card support for potential 5 card Major.
3N = wastage opposite potential Major short, doubleton opposite potential 5 card Major.

Over the 3H relay
3S = 5422 with 5 card minor
3N = 5422 with 5 card Major (NF, limited)
4C = short Major (and therefore more than 4 in other Major, 4 card minor)
4D+ = as 3N but stronger

Over 3S relay
3N = 4 card Major (NF, limited)
4C = 5 card Major
4D+ = 4 card Major, too strong for 3N

Some final observations on the 1N-2D continuations:

Much of the time the opponents are in the dark over responder's values.
After 1N-2D-2S-Pass, the opponents do not know whether responder had an a-priori game try, that would have continued to game after 1N-2D-2H (max), or whether responder was always committed to signing out in 2S (opposite less than 4 card support). This makes the decision to balance rather more dangerous.

Similar considerations apply at the game level. With defensive cards lying unfavourably for declarer you may make a speculative penalty double of the final game contract after a game invitation is accepted, as you can be confident that the opponents have no values in reserve to make up for the bad splits. That confidence is mainly lacking after game is reached via 1N-2D-2M. After 1N-2D-2H start, responder may have had only a game try at the time of bidding 2D, but equally he could have anything short of a slam try when continuing over 2H and then stopping in game.

After 1N-2D-2S start, if responder continues despite opener's minimum rebid, it is clear that his 2D response was based on a full-blooded GF hand, so the speculative double is less likely. But then the defence is presented with other problems. Responder might have had a borderline slam try to start with, but on hearing the minimum response the slam try is concealed, and knowledge of this might have had a bearing on the defensive play strategy.

One peculiar feature of the 1N-2D response is that you never get to play in 2N. There are occasions when you have a 5-2 Major fit, a game try opposite a minimum opener, and 2N is a better contract than 2M. Typically the 5-2 Major fit is lacking in high cards, and there is a source of tricks elsewhere, ie when opener has a 5 card minor. More often, 2M will be a better contract than 2N, and much of the time the issue will be neutral. A substantial gain is getting to play in 2M rather than 3M (or 2N) when you have a 5-3 Major fit, invitation opposite minimum.

You have to be disciplined not to leap directly to 1N-2D-2M-3N just because you want to play in 3N (or play or convert), as 3N in this sequence shows 5-5 in Spades and Diamonds. If you have gone through the 2D route with 5332 you must proceed through the 3C quasi-single-suiter route. This is even more of significance with the 2C response as will become apparent in the next message.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#7 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 18:00

1N-2C response
-------------------
All hands that are contained in the 2D response are replicated in the 2C response but with the Major suits reversed.

In addition, there are several hands that are not catered for by other continuations, namely:
Any balanced slam try
Any balanced GF hand with interest in locating 4M as an alternative to 3N.
Any hand with 5-5 in the Majors not suitable (too strong or too weak) for immediate 3H response (upper end game try).
Any invitational or better hand with 4-4 in the Majors
Any invitational hand with one 4 card Major and more than 4 in the other Major.

Opener's initial rebid after 1N-2C is precisely the same as after 1N-2D but one step removed and with the Majors reversed:
1N-2C-2D = maximum with fewer than 4 Hearts
1N-2C-2H = minimum with fewer than 4 Hearts
1N-2C-2S+ = more than 3 Hearts

1N-2C-2D-2H = to play (weak takeout)
1N-2C-2H-Pass = (1) weak take-out or (2) a-priori invitation with more than 4 Hearts and fewer than 4 Spades.

1N-2C-2R-2N+ = same as 1N-2D-2M-2N+ but with Majors reversed.

1N-2C-2R-2S = all of the additional hands contained in 1N-2C that are NOT mirrored in 1N-2D.

Opener's first obligation after 1N-2C-2R-2S is to clarify his Spade length:
1N-2C-2R-2S-2N = fewer than 4 Spades. Note that this is NF if opener has already indicated a minimum opener by choice of initial 2R rebid. Responder may pass with an invitational hand with (eg) 4-4 in the majors.
1N-2C-2R-2S-3C = 4 Spades
1N-2C-2R-2S-3D = 5 Spades

Detailed continuations after 1N-2C-2R-2S-2N (no 4 card Major):
------------------------------------------------------------------------
...3C = Puppet to 3D. Balanced slam try or GF+ 3-suited short either minor
...3C-3D-3H = Balanced slam try (relays)
...3C-3D-3S = GF+ 3-suited, specific minor short
...3C-3D-3N+ = GF+ 3-suited, other minor short

...3D = Further Spade length enquiry
...3D-3H = Doubleton Spade
...3D-3S = Tripleton Spade
Hand types for bidding 3D are:
(1) 5-5 in the Majors, GF or too weak for immediate 1N-3H. Plan to play in 3M if anything less than GF.
(2) Balanced GF with 5 card (either) Major, looking for 5-3 fit. No slam interest (would relay via ...3C-3D-3H with slam try).
Note that with 5Spades332 shape you can choose whether to consider it balanced and go through 1N-2C-2R-2S, or alternatively single-suited and start with 1N-2D-2M-3C

...3M = a priori invitation with more than 4 in bid Major, 4 in other Major. NF opposite a hand that has already shown minimum opener by choice of initial 2R rebid.

...3N = to play.

Detailed continuations after 1N-2C-2R-2S-3C (4 Spades, fewer Hearts):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...3D = balanced slam try (relays)
...3H = GF balanced with 5 Hearts (no slam try)
...3S = Natural, virtually to play even opposite max (may be v weak with 5-5 in majors. Opener may perhaps raise with highly suitable hand, fitting honours in both Majors)
...3N = To play. Probably has 3 Spades and was interested only opposite 5 card Spade suit.
...4m = Splinter. Probably based on 3-suiter. Potentially Major 2-suiter. Can use 4H to show the Major 2-suited GF

Detailed continuations after 1N-2C-2R-2S-3D (5 Spades):
------------------------------------------------------------------
...3H = balanced slam try OR GF balanced with 5 Hearts and no slam try
(opener shows doubleton, but only commits beyond 3N with 3 Hearts). Further relays promise slam try.
...3S = natural, virtually to play even opposite max (may be v weak with 5-5 in majors. Opener may perhaps raise with highly suitable hand, fitting honours in both Majors).
...4m = Splinter. Probably based on 3-suiter. Potentially major 2-suiter. Can use 4H to show the Major 2-suited GF

1N-2C-2S+
-------------
The main point about these sequences to bear in mind, that are different from the 1N-2D-2N+ continuations, is that after 1N-2D-2N+ a Spade fit is expressly guaranteed and known by both parties, but after 1N-2C-2S+ there is not (yet) any guarantee of a Heart fit (from opener's perspective. Obviously responder will by now know of a Heart fit if there is one held).

This lack of guarantee of an established fit (after 1N-2C-2S+) colours somewhat the priorities and design of the system in this area. It is suggested that for mnemonic purposes the continuations following 1N-2D-2N+ should mirror these continuations, despite that a technically superior scheme after 1N-2D-2N+ could be devised that takes advantage of the known fit.

We do know however, that responder must have a-priori GF+ values if there is no Heart fit (but does not promise a slam try). Furthermore, if there is a Heart fit then responder could have a wide range of values from very weak to slam try.

Accordingly, the priorities are:
In the initial 2S+ rebid, clarify min v max, and clarify Spade length.
If responder has a GF distributional hand, show that hand (and you can afford to consume some bidding space to do it).
Given an opportunity, it would be nice to be able to transfer at the 3 level to set the declaration.
And you want to have a cheap bid as setting up relay continuations for when responder has a balanced slam try.

Getting tired of typing now, so I shall leave working out these continuations as an "exercise for the student", suffice it to say that there are a large number of different ways of developing the auction here, all of which satisfy the above priorities.

Some final observations on the 1N-2C continuations:
------------------------------------------------------------
If responder has a "lower range" game try with 5-5 in the Majors, and opener denies a 4 card major, then you pretty much commit to staying out of game, and sign out in 3M. If opener shows a 4 card Major then you can enquire into max v min (if not already disclosed) and this should be sufficient to decide whether to go to game.

Playing a weak 1N opener, if you want to adapt these continuations for a passed hand responder without making too many changes, you can stipulate that 1N-2C-2H-2S is non-forcing. If you exclude all the GF hands that he could have held had be been a non-passed hand, it remains that a passed hand responder must have at least 4-4 in the majors for this sequence, so with a minimum opener (already disclosed) and a (partial) fit in Spades, you can stop here.

It is critical not to fall into the trap of going 1N-2C-2R-3N just because you want to play in 3N upon hearing the 2R rebid. For example, you may have a balanced GF hand with no slam interest (or slam interest that dissipates in light of choice of 2R bid), and holding 4H. You are interested in identifying a 4-4 Heart fit at the point of bidding 2C. However upon hearing the 2R rebid (denying a 4th Heart) you know that you want to play in 3N, and there is no alternative spot. Unfortunately you CANNOT just leap to 3N yet, as this would show 5-5 in the reds. You have to go through 2S to enquire about Spades on the way. This is one occasion where you are forced to give unnecessary information to the opponents. It is not all one way, however. If you were permitted to leap to 3N then the opps would know that you have no interest in Spades. At least in this method if you enquire about Spades and opener denies, they cannot be sure of your interest or disinterest in that suit. It may be important for the opening lead, but of course opener is declarer and all is clear when dummy is tabled. Opening lead is the most important factor to leave blind, however. Even so this might be regarded as a net weakness, although you are not in fact giving the opponents any more information than they would get via a standard Stayman sequence.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#8 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 18:02

Final observations on the system as a whole
---------------------------------------------------
Generally, the method is strongest in the game and slam zone, and weakest in the area in which responder is two-suited without game force and without both majors (or with 5-4 in the majors and no game interest). The game try sequences are considerably stronger than most classical methods in popular usage, by reason of the ability to stop lower when the game try is rejected, whilst retaining the choice to investigate a Major and still choose between 2N and 3m when there is no playable Major.

If you have a slam try you always have the option of relaying to the hilt via 2C response. If you are committed to that approach on all slam tries then this system is not for you. There are still some advantages over classical methods in the game try area, but you could certainly design a (slightly) more efficient relay structure if you devote an initial response exclusively for that purpose without worrying about the rest of the baggage in the 2C structure, and all the other GF sequences in this system would be wasted if never used and would be put to better use on non-GF sequences.

If you have a weak hand with 5-4 or 4-5 in the majors, most simple methods permit the use of 2C Stayman with the intention of passing 2M or converting 2D to the 5 card M to play at the 2 level. Some believe it pays to do this with weak 4-4 in the majors. This is down to the theory, in my opinion mistaken but followed by many players better than I, that if you run from a weak 1NT before they double you are less likely to be penalised. Also with a 3 suited hand short in Clubs you could 2C Stayman and then pass any response. Anyway, my methods do not allow this. With 5-4 in the majors you just have to pick the 5 card major.

Classical systems of responses based on transfers into all 4 suits use 2S as a transfer to Clubs, and 2N as a transfer to Diamonds (contrasted with the methods described here that use 2N and 3C respectively for that purpose). The classical method has the advantage of permitting opener to indicate how suitable his hand is, without committing beyond 3m. I choose instead to use the 2-step transfer principle into 2M.

Some systems I have come across allow for responder to show a good, long suit, worth gambling a shot at 3N if opener has a fitting honour in the long suit. With the 4-suit transfers that fitting honour could be shown when the suit is a minor, by choice of 1st or 2nd step response. If the suit is a Major you have to dedicate a separate response to show this hand type contrasted with other single-suited game tries in a Major. Again, this distinction is denied in the system described here. You pays your money ...

I habitually open 1NT with any 4333, 4432 or 5332 hand in range, including with a 5 card Major. Local regulations permitting I will regularly open 1N with 6m322 or 5m422 (perhaps not so much with 4 Spades and 5 Clubs). If responder relays, then opener may have to approximate a slightly skew shape to one of the three classical balanced shapes, 4333, 4432 or 5332, preserving honesty as far as possible in the Major suit lengths. A 5 card Major in opener's hand will normally come to light after a relay sequence, but of course responder needs a priori GF+ values to embark on that. If responder chooses to describe his GF hand then opener can normally safely assume a fit in his 5 card Major if responder shows a shortage elsewhere. In others who open 1N with 5 card Majors I have observed a paranoia about missing the fit, and certainly that is possible if responder lacks GF values (or even, horror, lacks a response at all). This is not an issue that has greatly troubled me, and this system is not particularly heavily geared to locating opener's 5 card Major (ie as some puppet Stayman systems do).

Systems that allow you to play in 2H rather than 3H when opener is minimum opposite a game try responder with a 4-4 fit gain over this system. But we still manage to stop in 2S when the 4-4 fit is in Spades, and other systems find it more difficult to stop in 2M when the fit is 5-2 or 5-3.

But perhaps the big plus for this system is that opener clarifies min v max immediately after 1N-2C/2D response, allowing responder to conceal the marginal nature of his hand, whether in the game zone or the slam zone.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#9 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-October-02, 19:35

i wish my posts were as readable as yours... for me, it's important to play in as many partscore contracts as possible over a weak nt... i presently can play at the 2 level in d, h, s... i can play at the 3 level in all 4 suits... i can invite with 4/4 majors, 4/5 majors, long minors, long majors and no trump... i can't invite with 2 suited M/m hands, nor can i show min/max as cheaply as you can

you presented a lot of info here and i think anyone who plays a mini/weak nt can greatly benefit from it (even people as stuck in their ways as i)... now i'll read it another dozen times or so till it sinks in
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#10 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-02, 20:01

luke warm, on Oct 2 2004, 08:35 PM, said:

i think anyone who plays a mini/weak nt can greatly benefit from it

Thanks for that. Actually I hope that strong notrumpers would find it of value also.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#11 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-October-02, 20:12

when i was reading rosenkrantz' 'bidding on target' he had 2 relay systems, one is the one i use (credited to truscott i think) and the other was one that was being used in australia... it was something like yours, but barely... anyway, he wrote that the one i play is better suited for a weak nt while the other for a strong

do you think your methods above work better with a strong nt, or equally as well with either?
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#12 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-03, 03:52

luke warm, on Oct 2 2004, 09:12 PM, said:

do you think your methods above work better with a strong nt, or equally as well with either?

I don't think that there is much in it, except possibly when responder is a passed hand, wherein concentration on GF responder is a waste of time opposite a weak 1N but retains some relevance opposite a strong 1N.

Other than that it becomes relevant if (1) you place a high importance on placing the declaration in opener's hand (which importance probably increases the stronger the range of the 1N), in which case 2D/2H transfers to 2H/2S respectively assume a greater benefit, or (2) you place a higher importance on run-outs by a non-passed hand responder opposite a weak 1N rather than opposite a strong 1N, in which case garbage or puppet Stayman assume a greater benefit. But the 2-step transfers into the Majors combined with the 2H response when you have invite with 4 Spades all combine to keep the bidding low in this system anyway.

I personally to do not rank either of those factors as having such importance that I am happy to pay the price in other respects, but that is a personal view and I accept that it is contentious. I have not read rosenkrantz' analysis so cannot comment on his views.

One weakness of my method that I forgot to mention is that on some sequences (particularly those committing to game) it gives a lot of information (particularly in relation to responder's distribution) to opponents on hands where other systems get to blast game whilst concealing some features. As has already been mentioned, there are compensating areas where less information is provided, but it is not all one-way. There is an inevitable conflict between giving partner enough information to bid accurately and concealing information from opponents, and I have taken the conscious decision to bid accurately. I have discovered that against top class opponents it is uncanny how they can see through the back of declarer's cards without my needing to tell them about it in the bidding. Against Club class opponents giving the information away is a greater disadvantage. And even experts get the opening lead wrong now and again. That latter point argues for concealment but in that event placing the declaration is less important than in a situation where concealing the unknown hand is relevant only in the later play.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#13 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-October-05, 09:44

Very good and impressing post.
After reading most of it , i decided that its too complex for my partnership for now.
0

#14 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-05, 12:15

Flame, on Oct 5 2004, 10:44 AM, said:

After reading most of it , i decided that its too complex for my partnership for now.

That is certainly a factor to consider.

And if you are about to take part in a major competition that costs you an entry fee that is a week's beer money for a student then it is a no-brainer ... steer well clear.

Aside from that I have taken the philosophical decision that once I am convinced of the merits of a method I will happily accept early disasters as part of the learning curve.

The problem is greatest when a complex method is combined with such a low frequency that the lesson learned from the disaster is not reinforced by repetition. At least with a 1N opener (especially a weak 1N opener) we are talking fairly high frequency. Even so, some of the particular responses are fairly low frequency.

I would just say that you can dispense with some of the complexity without losing some of the benefits of the system (and the complexities might then be added later, when the basics are firmly entrenched). The same applies to Moscito ... you could dispense with most of the symmetric relay stuff without losing most of the benefits of the limit openers and preemptive raises.

You could, for example, dispense with much of the repeated transfer structure following
1N-2D-2N+
or
1N-2C-2S+

and some of the artificial continuations following 1N-2C-2R-2S could be dispensed with although this would require some care to ensure that all responder's possible hand types can be catered for.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#15 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-October-05, 17:14

i think i could learn this (what i play now wasn't the easiest thing in the world to learn, but easier than this)... and i'm pretty sure your method covers more territory than mine...

i'm 53 years old tho, and my brain cells are dying at an alarming rate... it exhausts me just thinking about a new method
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#16 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-October-05, 20:30

luke warm, on Oct 5 2004, 06:14 PM, said:

i'm 53 years old tho, and my brain cells are dying at an alarming rate... it exhausts me just thinking about a new method

upps just lost the 1nt-2nt cell . :lol:
0

#17 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-October-06, 03:26

heheh... close to the truth, sigh
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#18 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-October-06, 05:52

One day I'll have time to read all of that :lol:, but right now I'll settle for a coment or two:

1. Bids to show invitational 55 in the majors are of little use. The playing strenght of such a hand opposite a 1NT opener is usually high enough to take a shot at game whenever one has mild values. Better use your two sequences for showing inv 55 to show a 56 or 65. This is useful to avoid playing the wrong major when opener has 2-2 in the majors (unless you prefer to just forget the 5-card suit, but then you can't open 1NT on 4441s or 5431s - singleton AKQ, of course).

2. Don't you prefer 1NT-2NT-3C-3M as natural, 54 strong? (Same for diams.)

More comments as I have time to read the rest of the theory :angry:
0

#19 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2004-October-06, 07:38

So, you want to be able to bid 6-5's just in case you have one and partner opened with 2-2 in the Majors, and opps will probably pass with their superfit in one of the minors?

I think invitational hands with 5-5 are really nice. Ok, with mild values you bid to game, with a little less you can still invite... No? ;)
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#20 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-06, 07:55

whereagles, on Oct 6 2004, 06:52 AM, said:

1. Bids to show invitational 55 in the majors are of little use. The playing strenght of such a hand opposite a 1NT opener is usually high enough to take a shot at game whenever one has mild values.

If that is so, then all it does is depress the lower end of values required of responder in order to justify game interest. Certainly I would not generally have any game interest with
That proves that there IS a lower limit below which you have no game interest. Now, you take the view that, as soon as you have sufficient values to have any game interest, then you have sufficient values to game force. That may be an effective policy against others who have no mechanism to make the distinction. But I think it would lose against someone with that mechanism.
Example 1:
Combined 24 high card points (maximum opener opposite 10 count), and no good game. Might make 3N on a good day with a misdefence, but likely to end in 4S rather than 3N

Example 2:
Combined 18 high card points (minimum opener opposite 7 count), 4M relies only on a 3-2 break

It is my contention that if you can construct a 7 count responder that makes game opposite a minimum shapeless opener, and another 10 count with the same shape that cannot confidently make more than 8 tricks opposite a particular maximum opener, then that demonstrates that leaving the decision entirely to responder is less than optimal.

whereagles, on Oct 6 2004, 06:52 AM, said:

Better use your two sequences for showing inv 55 to show a 56 or 65. This is useful to avoid playing the wrong major when opener has 2-2 in the majors (unless you prefer to just forget the 5-card suit, but then you can't open 1NT on 4441s or 5431s - singleton AKQ, of course).

If opener accepts the game try there is room to investigate the correct major when opener has equal length. I accept the risk of an inferior fit at the 3 level if the game try is declined. Personally I think it is a price worth paying, but you are free to differ. It is possible, in my methods, for opener to be 2-2 in the majors but it has a low frequency. I never open 1NT with a singleton (honour or otherwise), but I do not see that as significant ... it will always be right to play in the other major and opener will convert in that event.

whereagles, on Oct 6 2004, 06:52 AM, said:

2. Don't you prefer 1NT-2NT-3C-3M as natural, 54 strong? (Same for diams.)

Short answer - no.
Long answer - I get to show 54 strong hands, by an alternative route, which also pinpoints the side suit shortage (or lack) without committing beyond 3N.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users