[mgoetze]

Sorry to say this but having p-1♠-2♦-2♥ as nonforcing is just ridiculous. Please change it.

[helene_t]

Yeah that's a problem with playing 2/1 without 2-way drury. A 2/1 by a passed hand is presumably natural non-gf but how forcing is it? I think it should be forcing on responder, i.e. responder can never pass under game after having made a 2/1. I don't want to play stone-age Acol when I open in 3rd/4th seat.

[georgi]

mgoetze, on 2011-August-23, 16:24, said:

Sorry to say this but having p-1♠-2♦-2♥ as nonforcing is just ridiculous. Please change it.

You passed, then GIB opened 1♠, you've bidded 2♦, GIB re-bidded 2♥ and you passed again?

Or GIB passed, you've opened 1♠, GIB bidded 2♦, you 2♥ and GIB passed that?

2♦ is described as max passed hand with natural diamonds and none-forcing in general ( identical with 2♣ here ).

What was the opener's hand and why it bidded 2♥ with invite+ values or probably probable game values as you mentioned it?

2NT or any suit beyond the rebid of 2S would be promising more values.

GIB doesn't play Drury, but that shouldn't be lethal to get normal game with 26+HCP in both hands, right?

[mgoetze]

georgi, on 2011-August-23, 17:56, said:

Or GIB passed, you've opened 1♠, GIB bidded 2♦, you 2♥ and GIB passed that?

Yes.

Quote

What was the opener's hand

A 5422 18-count, but that's not the point. It shouldn't matter at all what hand I have.

Quote

and why it bidded 2♥ with invite+ values or probably probable game values

Because in normal 21st-Century Bridge, that is 100% forcing (when not playing an extreme light opening system such as MOSCITO).

[barmar]

Since GIB doesn't play Drury, it shouldn't be worried about subminimum 3rd seat openings. And I don't think it makes these kinds of opening bids itself, does it? So if opener doesn't pass responder's 2/1 bid, there should still be safety on the 3 level, and it should take another call.

Essentially, a 2/1 by a passed hand should be treated similar to an SAYC 2/1, except that opener with a minimum can assume there's no game and is allowed to pass it if he has tolerance for responder's suit. But responder should promise a rebid through 2 of opener's suit if the auction continues.

georgi, are you saying that he has to jump to 3♥ to show the 5422 18 count?

[Bbradley62]

barmar, on 2011-August-24, 16:37, said:

georgi, on 2011-August-23, 17:56, said:

What was the opener's hand and why it bidded 2♥ with invite+ values or probably probable game values as you mentioned it?

georgi, are you saying that he has to jump to 3♥ to show the 5422 18 5413 15 count?

FYP

[georgi]

barmar, on 2011-August-24, 16:37, said:

Since GIB doesn't play Drury, it shouldn't be worried about subminimum 3rd seat openings. And I don't think it makes these kinds of opening bids itself, does it? So if opener doesn't pass responder's 2/1 bid, there should still be safety on the 3 level, and it should take another call.

Essentially, a 2/1 by a passed hand should be treated similar to an SAYC 2/1, except that opener with a minimum can assume there's no game and is allowed to pass it if he has tolerance for responder's suit. But responder should promise a rebid through 2 of opener's suit if the auction continues.

georgi, are you saying that he has to jump to 3♥ to show the 5422 18 count?

For the particular auction, where the 3rd seat opened major, say 1♠, responder bidded none-forcing bid, but still showing maximum pass.
2♣ - Non-game-forcing two-over-one -- 10-11 HCP; biddable C; 12- total points
2♦ - Non-game-forcing two-over-one -- 10-11 HCP; biddable D; 12- total points

Then the opener could evaluate whether he could pass, bid some invite ( as new suit below his opened major, like 2♥ or give fit in partner's minor) or force with natural suits.
He could also correct the responder's suit with Diamonds/Hearts ( if responder's suit is Clubs ) or rebid his major. Looking for the best/safety part-score.

With 15+HCP ( assuming we have 10-11 in the partner ) we are likely forced to game.
So we could safely rebid 3rd level new suit ( or rebid our at 3rd promising 6+) showing partner we settled a game forcing values.

3♥ rebid here would be:-- 4+ ♥; 5+ ♠; 21- HCP; 15-22 total points; forcing to 3N
3♠ - Jump rebid -- 6+ S; 21- HCP; 16-22 total points
or even 3NT if we are trying to guess responder don't have fit elsewhere.
3NT - -- 2-5 ♣; 2-5 ♦; 2-5 ♥; 5 ♠; 17-20 HCP; 22- total points; partial stop in ♣; partial stop in ♥

2NT is also safety for achieving game in NT
2NT - -- 2-5 ♣; 2-5 ♦; 2-5 ♥; 5 ♠; 15-16 HCP; partial stop in ♣; partial stop in ♥
Partner won't pass on 25-27HCP for sure.

The case is a little different in the auction where we opened 1♥ and rebid 2♠ over our partner's 2 in a minor, instead of the above where we show again 5+4+ in majors.
But still the scenario is followed, any new suit beyond our 2nd level rebidded major is strong enough.

[helene_t]

Yes Georgi, that is presumably how the GIB system works, but Michael's point is that it is a stupid system and it needs to be changed.

Even if 2♣ is limited to 11 points (as it is here because responder is a passed hand),
1♠-2♣
2♥*
needs to be forcing. It is forcing in SAYC and in modern Acol. And every other (semi)sane system for that matter.

[mgoetze]

Georgi, apparently you work for Bridge Base in some capacity. I know they have some people on staff who are very good bridge players. Since you don't want to take our word for it, please just ask one of them whether it makes any sense at all for pass-1♠-2♣-2♥ to be nonforcing. I know what answer you will get.