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4th. SUIT after 2/1 A general slam try?

#1 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 11:25



N/S were on a different wavelength!

North contends 3 is 4th suit forcing, 4 is Ace asking and 4NT to play!

South argues 3 likely shows a control since the later 4 sets trumps. 4NT is 1430 etc.

6NT was indeed the place to be, luckily, but I would like to know how experts treat 3 and 4 in this auction
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#2 User is offline   the_dude 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 14:16

With my partners, we make these auctions easy by following these simple guidelines:

- 3 could be artificial, is forcing, but does not necessarily set any suit as trump .. there's many hands you could have and make this call.

- 4 is general slam try and sets trump. It cannot be blackwood since trump has not yet been set.

- Partner of the 4 bidder bids 4NT (to play) to say he is balanced/minimum and not interested. Any other bid is a cue bid in support of clubs .. confirming interest in slam. 5C denies controls to bid but is stronger than 4NT. This player MAY NOT bid blackwood at this time even if he wanted to.

(the one nebulous response in this spot is rebidding his major. Many play this as a choice of games bid and thus passable .. be careful with this bid)

- After a positive (cue bid) response, 4NT by the original 4 bidder is blackwood. And subsequent 4NT by his partner is blackwood. After a slam try and confirmation, 4NT is always blackwood. This player CANNOT sign off in 4NT after asking for interest and getting confirmation. 5C is the weakest bid he can make if he wants to sign off.

So in your case, 4 set trump and showed slam interest, 4 by North confirmed interest in slam and 4NT was RKC for clubs.
If no one comes from the future to stop you from doing it then how bad a decision could it really be?
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#3 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 15:56

3D covers a lot of ground. The typical hand is 2533 with no diamond stopper, but obviously it could be a lot of other hands. For instance, a hand that is relatively slam positive or suit oriented with just 1 diamond stopper would likely start with 3D (Jx AKxxx Axxx Qx should definitely bid 3D imo). A hand with 6 weakish hearts might opt for 3D presuming it needs a 3H bid from partner in order to play hearts, as partner might raise a direct 3H bid to game with a stiff H. And of course 3D might be an avanced cue.

North should just have bid 3H. He has 6 really good hearts, and wants to emphasize that. 3D followed by 4C means he was advanced cueing for clubs. This is the wrong concept when you have 6 solid hearts, this is especially true wtih Kx of diamonds that will often need to be rightsided.

The basic point of 3D is that if partner does not bid 3D he has to make a committal bid. 3N is obviously very committal. 4C goes past 3N, so is committal. 3S shows 3 card spade support so cannot be utilized properly. And 3H should be a good 6 card suit or better, and makes figuring out diamond stoppers potentially awkward (though partner has 3S available). 3D doesn't eat up much room, and is not committal, so should be utilized fairly often.

This kind of shows just how cramped 1S-2H-3C is (and of course 1S-2H-3D is even worse) and why imo 3C should be very well defined (I think it should show 5-5). It is just so much easier to bid over 2S even though there are only 2 extra steps. However, this one shouldn't have been that difficult, as norths hearts were so good
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#4 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2011-April-21, 23:25

Generally - what JLOGIC said.
3 may be a lot of hands but the first and default interpretation is asking for further description without stopper. It may be looking if opener has doubleton hearts or just looking for the right game spot. 3NT showed stopper in and at most single heart. (with 2 hearts opener would first show doubleton hearts), so North should bid 3, but South should bid 3 over 3 (no extra values).
4 over 3NT shows 4 clubs, probably 6 not so good hearts single diamond. Was looking for doubleton hearts, but if not would rather play , may slam is still possible.
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#5 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2011-April-22, 06:45

Both players bid a bit surreal for me. North should repeat his (not bid 4th suit) and South should repeat his (not bid 3NT)
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#6 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-April-23, 03:30

View Postjmcw, on 2011-April-21, 11:25, said:



N/S were on a different wavelength!

North contends 3 is 4th suit forcing, 4 is Ace asking and 4NT to play!

South argues 3 likely shows a control since the later 4 sets trumps. 4NT is 1430 etc.

6NT was indeed the place to be, luckily, but I would like to know how experts treat 3 and 4 in this auction





sure, again, one of those sequences which should be discussed with Partner.
Personally I don't think 3 is right. Other descriptive bids are available: 3 or even 3NT, if you have no further ambition, 4NT, as a limit bid.

And the 3NTresponse is even worse....



Bob Herreman
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#7 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-April-23, 03:30

View Postjmcw, on 2011-April-21, 11:25, said:



N/S were on a different wavelength!

North contends 3 is 4th suit forcing, 4 is Ace asking and 4NT to play!

South argues 3 likely shows a control since the later 4 sets trumps. 4NT is 1430 etc.

6NT was indeed the place to be, luckily, but I would like to know how experts treat 3 and 4 in this auction





sure, again, one of those sequences which should be discussed with Partner.
Personally I don't think 3 is right. Other descriptive bids are available: 3 or even 3NT, if you have no further ambition, 4NT, as a limit bid.

And the 3NTresponse is even worse....



Bob Herreman
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#8 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-24, 04:21

This hand also once again shows how terrible a convention like minorwood can be unless you know exactly when it is on and when it isn't.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#9 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2011-April-25, 15:06

Hi,

we play 3D as FSF, but call it mark time bid or what ever you like.
I would say, that lots of players in North Anerica, would play 3D as
natural.
I am heavily Acol influenced, so if we have bid 3 suits naturally,
bidding the 4th suit in the cheapest possible way is FSF.

Both styles are playable.

A question to North - what is wrong with 3H? Why does North wants to bid
a artifical 3D, instead of showing his 6th heart?

A question to South - If 4C sets trumps, what was the intention of 4D, a
cue with Qx?
For all South knowes, the control showing 3D bid may be based on shortage.

A general recommendation is also to agree not to play advanced cue bids,
unless the advanced cue bid also clearly sets trumps the moment the bid is
on the table - which may mean, the bid is not an advanced cue any longer.


With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#10 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-26, 16:19

You can use 4th suit in a lot of ways but I like it as natural, 5-5 (eventually 6-5 if 4th suit is spades).
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