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strong diamond system questions

#21 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-April-27, 02:46

View Postobscurans, on 2011-April-24, 09:30, said:

I've been trying to cook up a strong diamond system
~snip~
1: any strong (17+) or weak NT, F1, all others nf
~snip~

This isn't a strong system, it's 2-way and most often it will be weak... :rolleyes:
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#22 User is offline   halcj 

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Posted 2012-February-25, 09:39

Please see Jones Strong Diamond for a full strong 1 system and explanation of the advantages of this. The website is based on ongoing database research which proves the potential of the strong 1.
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#23 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-February-27, 02:19

View Posthalcj, on 2012-February-25, 09:39, said:

The website is based on ongoing database research which proves the potential of the strong 1.


Welcome to the forums. I had a quick look through the site but did not find any proof for strong diamond systems versus the alternatives. I doubt many regular readers of this forum would dispute that a strong diamond system is workable, even good. I have never seen anyone claim that they are generally better than other methods.
(-: Zel :-)
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#24 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-February-27, 06:03

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-February-27, 02:19, said:

... I had a quick look through the site but did not find any proof ...

The web site notes "I also intend to add pages to summarise my research" which we can look forward to seeing
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#25 User is offline   SixOfWands 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 12:06

I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.
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#26 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 17:16

View PostSixOfWands, on 2012-March-01, 12:06, said:

I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.

Welcome to bbf! What system do you currently play?
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#27 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 19:03

Burgay invented and played played a strong Diamond system; I played against this a bit. It was quite effective and had nothing to do with any forcing pass system. I think there are still some copies floating on the web.
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#28 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 21:35

View PostSixOfWands, on 2012-March-01, 12:06, said:

I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.



View Postglen, on 2012-March-01, 17:16, said:

Welcome to bbf! What system do you currently play?


Considering the sudden flood of new posters who don't make any other posts, i'd hazard a small bet on his playing the Jones diamond with his dad.
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#29 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 21:37

Interesting. I spent a lot of time analyzing a Strong Diamond System in the 1960s ....

Revolution in Bridge, 1965, G. R. Nail and Robert Stucker, 325 pages, LCCC 65-26321

Nail played in the Bermuda Bowl in 1962, 1963. However, this system was not played by Nail in the BB.

Italian Asking Bid influence and lots of memory work.

Ahead of his time?

1NT = 14-16

2NT = 20-21

5-card Majors

1C = Balanced or 5-cd minor, or unbidable Major

1D = 16+ hcp and UNBALANCED


I still prefer almost any Strong Club system ....
Ultra ♣: See Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape Club - Improved version of Ultra , notes not posted yet.

In progress: Canapé Attack System with Strong Diamond and 4-cd Major openings ...
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#30 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2012-March-01, 21:40

View PostNabooba, on 2012-March-01, 19:03, said:

Burgay invented and played played a strong Diamond system; I played against this a bit. It was quite effective and had nothing to do with any forcing pass system. I think there are still some copies floating on the web.


Yep, here is one reference:

http://bridgewithdan...tems/Burgay.txt

Don't forget Magic Diamond:

www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/MagicD.zip

This post has been edited by PrecisionL: 2012-March-02, 06:38

Ultra ♣: See Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape Club - Improved version of Ultra , notes not posted yet.

In progress: Canapé Attack System with Strong Diamond and 4-cd Major openings ...
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#31 User is offline   SixOfWands 

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Posted 2013-September-09, 05:32

If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System...

www.strongdiamond.co.uk

I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant!

Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards,

Nigel
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#32 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-September-09, 14:32

View PostSixOfWands, on 2013-September-09, 05:32, said:

If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System...

www.strongdiamond.co.uk

I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant!

Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards,

Nigel

I wonder if you like it so much because of the constructive part, or rather because of the aggressive preempts? I think the latter, which hasn't got much to do with strong diamonds :P
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#33 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2013-September-09, 16:14

You can also do a certain amount of damage with 1 and 1 potentially short and containing all the balanced hands and 1N big and unbalanced.
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#34 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2013-September-11, 22:49

In general, what is the supposed advantage of such strong diamond systems as opposed to strong club systems, or sttandard? It seems like a strong diamond system is nothing more than a standard precision 1C with a nebulous 1D but with 1D and 1C reversed and slightly different point ranges for the various opening bids. am I missing something here? --

*** I suspect the intent is to untangle little hands at the 1-level conveniently.
Even trading space for strong hands.
*** My personal take is that is backwards.
Little hands need to get up on their fit; quits if no fit found quickly.
If the 1C structure jumps to 3C/3D often to preempt opponents' Major,
yet generally safe, that could work.
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#35 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-September-12, 07:43

View PostNickRW, on 2011-April-21, 09:24, said:

A flippant PS. I'm sure you could devise a decent system around a strong 1 opener - with I suppose 1m being a transfer to the majors and 1S being minors. Nobody is going to play it - but I'm sure it would be basically playable.

Not sure how I missed this before but ETM has a module for a strong heart system that can be plugged into many other methods. I was designing methods around this concept myself before finding the ETM page. In the end I found that the system I ended up with was simply less efficient then the strong club method and therefore dropped the idea. I did indeed combine it with 1 = 4+ hearts and 1 = 4+ spades.

As an aside, I found the following exchange hilarious reading it back:

View Posthalcj, on 2012-February-25, 09:39, said:

Please see Jones Strong Diamond for a full strong 1 system and explanation of the advantages of this. The website is based on ongoing database research which proves the potential of the strong 1.

View PostSixOfWands, on 2012-March-01, 12:06, said:

I agree this is a great site, well worth checking out.

View Postwank, on 2012-March-01, 21:35, said:

Considering the sudden flood of new posters who don't make any other posts, i'd hazard a small bet on his playing the Jones diamond with his dad.

View PostSixOfWands, on 2013-September-09, 05:32, said:

If you want to see a really good strong diamond system check out The Mirror Diamond System...

www.strongdiamond.co.uk

I've been playing this for some time with my son and it's brilliant!

Anyone want to play it? I have full disclosure convention cards,

Nigel


If you check the "Jones Strong Diamond" link you will see it is identical to that of the "Mirror Diamond System".
(-: Zel :-)
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#36 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-September-12, 14:31

View Postdake50, on 2013-September-11, 22:49, said:

In general, what is the supposed advantage of such strong diamond systems as opposed to strong club systems, or sttandard? It seems like a strong diamond system is nothing more than a standard precision 1C with a nebulous 1D but with 1D and 1C reversed and slightly different point ranges for the various opening bids. am I missing something here? --

I've always thought the aim of strong systems was to be very aggressive by using extremely light and descriptive 1M/2m openings (around 8-12). These are very common and allow for heavy preemption. It's also the range strong pass systems use.

Every intermediate hand is put into 1. The biggest benefit of using a nebulous 1 instead of a nebulous 1 is that you can recycle your entire system after the sequence 1-1-... (1M/1NT/2m = same as opening, but a bit stronger) which is impossible after a 1 opening. That's in an ideal world where opps don't intervene ofcourse.

As a result you up your strong range (say 18+) and put it in 1. Upping the range covers for the lost space compared to a strong opening and keeps your 1 range small enough and doesn't make it too small, a nice balance.

Imo this approach respects some very good principles, and it looks like it's an attempt to replace strong pass systems. The 8-12 range covers around 1/3 of all hands. Every stronger hand is opened nebulous (you have 2 ranges, a strong pass system has only 1 range but stays lower).

When you're planning on playing 1M around 11-15HCP and a wide ranging nebulous 1m opening, I'd definitely advise to play strong . Playing a 16+ strong system is already hard enough, no reason to make it even harder by playing a 16+ strong system imo. And even by doing so, you don't use the advantages of the nebulous 1 opening to their full extend.
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#37 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2013-September-12, 21:49

Keylime & I will be playing a Strong Diamond system with 8-12 hcp 4cd major opening bids @ the 1-level in the Naples Regional this month. (Zar 26 pt openings) The design goal is to improve partial and game bidding at the expense of the 16+ hcp hands which have a frequency of 9.8 %. This effort is bending our minds.
Ultra ♣: See Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf

C3: Copious Canape Club - Improved version of Ultra , notes not posted yet.

In progress: Canapé Attack System with Strong Diamond and 4-cd Major openings ...
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#38 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2013-September-13, 00:30

View PostPrecisionL, on 2013-September-12, 21:49, said:

Keylime & I will be playing a Strong Diamond system with 8-12 hcp 4cd major opening bids @ the 1-level in the Naples Regional this month. (Zar 26 pt openings) The design goal is to improve partial and game bidding at the expense of the 16+ hcp hands which have a frequency of 9.8 %. This effort is bending our minds.


Sounds interesting. Please give us a trip report after its over.
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#39 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-September-13, 00:33

PrecisionL: what do you do with 13-16 hands with a 5cM?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#40 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2013-September-13, 02:11

View Postgwnn, on 2013-September-13, 00:33, said:

PrecisionL: what do you do with 13-16 hands with a 5cM?


You open 1C. You can check out Magic Diamond for a system like this.

1C = Any unbalanced 13-16 or 15-17 balanced
1D = Strong
1M = 4+ major (not 4333 or 4332), may have longer minor, 8-12 hcp
1NT = 12-14 hcp
2m = 6+ minor or 5 card minor and 4 cards in other minor, 8-12 hcp

In the original Magic Diamond 2M and 2NT where used as multi two-suiters (Finnish Scissors):

2H = 5-5 hearts and clubs or 5-5 spades and diamonds, 8-12 hcp
2S = 5-5 spades and clubs or 5-5 hearts and diamonds, 8-12 hcp
2NT = 5-5 minors or 5-5 majors, 8-12 hcp
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