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1D-1N relay

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2011-January-16, 15:30

Think we have just enough room to relay sensibly over our 1D opening. I'm wondering what the best practice is for making use of it. For instance, if I hold...

AKxxx xxx x AKxx

I'll definitely want to show spades and not relay opener's hand.

If I have...

AKxx xxx Axxx Kx

I think I would want to relay.

What if I have...

AKxx xx AKxxx xx

relay again or show the spades now? I would think show the spades

What do folks who use 1D-1N as a GF relay do with 1D-2m?

I would think 2C would be to play (especially as our 1D is nebulous) and 1D-2D would handle all or most invitational hands with minors. Perhaps 1D-3C would be GI now

Also, here's how we might relay 1D-1N in case anyone has suggestions for improvements...

1D-1N

2C-both minors
2D-4432s and 4333s and 4M5C22
2H-3-suited short major or 5m332s
2S-4H/5D
2N-3-suited short minor
3C-4S/5D, short hearts
etc
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#2 User is offline   olien 

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Posted 2011-January-16, 22:57

I know that the Granovetters used to play a structure where 1-1NT was the GFR.

Their 1NT opening denied a 4-card major, and if their 1 opening was balanced, it included atleast one 4-card major. After 1 - 1NT, I know that the general idea was as below.

After 1-1NT:
2 = balanced hand, atleast 1 4-card major
2+ = unbalanced hands.

I agree that this structure may be best if you can put all of your balanced hands into one bid over 1NT. Maybe a structure like this:

2 = any balanced hand or 4M-5C-22
2 = both minors (not 5+/5+)
2 = 4 5+ or 3-suited both majors
2 = 4 5+
2NT = (04)(54)
3 = (41)44
3 = 5+/5+ minors, short
3 = 11(65)
3+ = 5+/5+ minors, short

Not sure what you do with 4+ 6+, but anyways:

1 - 1NT// 2 - 2:
2 = 4 5+
2NT = 5+ 4, 0-1
3 = 5+ 4, equal short
3 and higher = 5+ 4, 0-1

If you open 4 6+ with 2, could even play the 2 re-bid as 5+ 4 or 4X-5-22, and use something like this:

1 - 1NT// 2 - 2// 2 - 2NT:
3 = 4M-5-22
3 = 1=3=4=5
3 = 2=2=4=5
3 and higher = 3=1=4=5

Also, if you open 2 with 4-6+, and use this possible change, takes even more load off of the 2 re-bid and limits that to strictly 4432s, 4333s, and 5m(332)s.

1 - 1NT// 2 - 2:
2NT = 44(41) or 44(50)
---> 3 = 4414 or 4405, 3 = 4441, 3 and higher = 4450
3 and higher = 4 5+


1 - 1NT// 2NT - 3:
3 = 04(54)
3 = 4=0=4=5
3 and higher = 4=0=5=4

1 - 1NT// 3 - 3:
3 = 1=4=4=4
3 and higher = 4=1=4=4


I don't know if this is what you're going for, but seems relatively symmetric and I believe that separating balanced hands from unbalanced hands as quickly as possible is best. Also, if it goes 1 - 1NT// 2 (balanced), then you can treat responder's non-relay bids as showing various minor suit GF bids and that takes the load off of 1 - 2m and allows the balanced hand to possibly ask more about responder's hand, probably best to restrict these to 1-suited minor or 2-suited with both minors. Hope this helps.

Regards
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 00:36

I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1 opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.

I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2 natural (sort of wide ranging), 2 as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+, no other suit), 3 as an invitational diamond raise and 3 as preemptive.

If you want to play relays over a short 1, you pretty much need to either use 2 as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1 as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#4 User is offline   olien 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 00:46

View Postawm, on 2011-January-17, 00:36, said:

If you want to play relays over a short 1, you pretty much need to either use 2 as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1 as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).



I was informed that a 1 response as "hearts or relay" is super-chart, but maybe Mr. Beye was wrong on that front also. Anyways, agree with the 1 needing to be unbalanced 4+ if playing 1NT as GFR, but the Granovetter's played it this way and a 1 response was "waiting" over 1 (which had to have a 4-card major if balanced), then 1=4 and 1NT=balanced with 4 over the 1 reply.
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 21:01

View Postawm, on 2011-January-17, 00:36, said:

I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1 opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.

I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2 natural (sort of wide ranging), 2 as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+, no other suit), 3 as an invitational diamond raise and 3 as preemptive.

If you want to play relays over a short 1, you pretty much need to either use 2 as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1 as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).


We're definitely using the nebulous 1D. With the patterns 3343, 3334, (32)44 we would have to respond in a major. As opener is required to raise with three and shortness, we would occasionally wind up in 3-3 fits. This seems like it would be infrequent to me, but I haven't looked at hands yet. Is this very bad?

1D-2C as GF relay doesn't leave enough room.

I think 1D-2C has to be clubs nf but wide-ranging

1D-2D needs to handle most of the invitational hands (we use 1D-2N as weak minors).

I forgot in my first post to include the patterns with 5 clubs and 4M. We might hide the (42)25 with the balanced hands, but we need to be able to show 4-1-3-5 etc.

Olien asked something about 6m/4m hands. We open those 2m.

1D-1N

.....2C-minors (this can also handle the (41)-3-5s....they would substitute for the 6m4m21 hand pattern since this hand pattern opens 2m and not 1D)
.....2D-bal (4432 or 4333 or 5C4M22)
.....2H-3-suited
.....2S-4H/5D
.....2N-5m332
.....3C-4S/5D, higher

Can anyone improve on this?


hm...

.....2C-bal
..........2H-5C332 or 5C4M22
.....2D-minors
.....2H-3-suited
..........2N-minor shortage
...............3D-diamond shortage
....................3S-4-4-1-4
....................3N-4-4-0-5
..........3C-spade shortage
..........3D-4-1-4-4
..........3H-4-0-4-5
..........3S-4-0-5-4
.....2S-4H/5D
.....2N-(41)-3-5 or (43)-1-5
..........3D-1-4-3-5
..........3H-4-1-3-5
..........3S-3-4-1-5
..........3N-4-3-1-5
.....3C-4S/5D, higher
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