[gnasher]

I'd double 3♠, and then double 4♠ to show my extra values.

If partner had doubled 4♠, it would have said that he thought we might make something, but didn't want to comit to the five level. I would have bid 4NT opposite that.

[JLOGIC]

Not a fan of doubling 4S at all. We have much more offense and not as much defense as partner might expect (well, I should say our defense is dependent largely on his club length). It's not like we need much, Qxx QJxx Jxx Jxx is very possibly a double game swing. Even on non double game swings I expect partner to pass pretty often when we can make something, and they're down only 1 or 2.

I'm not willing to thread the needle so much that we cannot make anything and they cannot make when partner is going to misjudge way too often over our 2nd double which is often something more like x Axx AKxx AQxxx or whatever. I think our big/medium loss scenarios will occur too often.

[Phil]

FTR, partner held Qx QJxx Kxxx xxx. The person that held this hand (not me, nor my partner) basically jammed this into slam with 4♠ and then took the push to 6♣.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-12, 19:05, said:

Not a fan of doubling 4S at all. We have much more offense and not as much defense as partner might expect (well, I should say our defense is dependent largely on his club length). It's not like we need much, Qxx QJxx Jxx Jxx is very possibly a double game swing. Even on non double game swings I expect partner to pass pretty often when we can make something, and they're down only 1 or 2.

I'm not willing to thread the needle so much that we cannot make anything and they cannot make when partner is going to misjudge way too often over our 2nd double which is often something more like x Axx AKxx AQxxx or whatever. I think our big/medium loss scenarios will occur too often.

Would your double of 4♠ be for penalties?

[JLOGIC]

By responder you mean?

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-13, 02:52, said:

By responder you mean?

I meant by opener, after responder passes over 4♠. But the meaning of a double by responder is also relevant.

[rhm]

Phil, on 2011-January-12, 13:00, said:

It's funny you mention Lefty. I have the hand record now, and I'm going to try to create likely actions by LHO:


If you bid 4♦:

Spoiler

LHO bids 4♠, partner bids 5♦, pass, ?

Easy. 5♠ to invite 7♦

I think, no matter how you define double, the people, who double, severely underestimate the frequency of playing 3♠ doubled. After a preempt partner has now to make a decision and will often prefer to defend. Of course there are some very few deals, where by accident 3♠ doubled may be best, but 9 times out of ten it will be a disaster.
The prototype on which you should double 3♠ is a balanced hand with 18-19 HCP and no stopper in ♠.
Of course you may also double with hands, which are slightly different, for example 4 aces and a six card empty club suit might double.
Claiming that it is strictly for takeout, does not explain, what you would do with other strong hands and strong balanced or semi-balanced hand come up much more frequently in such auctions and unless these hands can bid 3NT, these hands can not do anything but double.
With really offensive hands you just have to bid on. The double with this hand type is plain wrong

Rainer Herrmann

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2011-January-13, 03:05, said:

I meant by opener, after responder passes over 4♠. But the meaning of a double by responder is also relevant.

I would double on all hands with 1345 where I had them beat in top tricks (or 1336 or 1246 whatever my hand was where I didn't want to bid to the 5 level by myself). To me doubling shows the same hand type, just stronger.

I guess you're asking if I ever expect partner to pull? If so, then yes I do, I think he can pass with a bad hand, then when I show extra values bid over the double, I've already made a takeout double of spades so I don't think he'll play me for a trump stack. If he always bid with a bad hand that didn't have a lot of extra shape directly over 4S he would risk getting raised to 6.

As usual there are some problem hands where he'd want to make sure he saved since I might pass it out. I think passing then bidding is possible on some hands though.

I would bid with this hand with this vulnerability because I have a spade void which partner will not expect, and that makes a big difference in his judgment on whether to pass the double or not. I also have such a great hand that I expect to make at the 5 level very often, and he cannot expect this much offensive power. I also have AKQxxx which makes me worried that they might make (partner knows I have 5 clubs but the 6th one combined with so much concentration there sometimes causes disasters). Also, I don't expect to beat them a ton ever which is bad news r/w since we might go +100 or +300 a lot instead of 600. Usually I am happy to "take a plus" but this hand is very strong to me, I mean some people are forcing to slam which I don't find crazy at all and could hit gold opposite not much.

Usually when I have a very strong hand, and a very strong and long suit, and a void I try to bid rather than double.