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Range for a balancing NT

#1 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 06:04

Assume that the auction starts

(1M) - P - (P) - 1N

What range are you showing.

Now assume

(1m) - P - (P) - 1N

Any changes?
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#2 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 06:58

i play bal nt 10-15 a bit lighter than most I expect and no doubt a wider range and this would be true for oth min and maj openings
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 08:07

10-13 here, system on.

14-16 dbls and bids NT
17-19 balances 2NT
20+ dbls and jumps in NT
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 08:31

balanced 1 minor at MPs with 8-12, but 10-14 against a major
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#5 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 10:03

11-14 vs 1m, with regular Stayman + Systems on
(11)12-16 vs 1M, with Range Stayman + Systems on
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#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 11:17

A friend of mine who is well known on the ACBL tournament scene uses 10-16 HCP as his balancing NT. Partner uses a 2 inquiry for shape and range. It seems to work quite well.
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#7 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 12:30

I have seen 11-14 over 1m and 11-16 over 1M. Personally I am not comfortable bidding X with 15 even over 1m, so I like 11-15 over 1m and 11-16 over 1M.
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 12:35

11-14 (m) and 11-16 (M)I thought were standard.
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#9 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 14:33

I like to stick to four point ranges at most so about 11-14 over a minor and 12-15 over a major.
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 14:56

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2011-January-08, 10:03, said:

11-14 vs 1m, with regular Stayman + Systems on
(11)12-16 vs 1M, with Range Stayman + Systems on


That sounds like what Mike Lawrence recommends. He gave pretty good examples for why balancing against a major needs to be a higher and wider range.
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#11 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 15:05

I've played all 4 combinations of 11 or 12 to 14 or 15. Usually put down 11-14 now. Have no strong feelings it is best, just its what I learned as normal.

Is "systems on" (or the 2C inquiry) legal over a super-wide-ranged NT overcall, when the same system would not be legal over a NT opening bid with the same range?
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#12 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 15:52

I tried to introduce range check Stayman in some partnerships, it did not really catch on as it was quite rare. I guess 1M doesn't get passed out much here. So I'm sticking with 11-14 for now, even though I agree with the theory that it should be 11-16 over 1M.
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#13 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 16:22

Most partners like 11-14 so that is what I play but I would prefer slightly sounder, especially over 1M.

Here in Acol-land, when 1M gets passed out it is often good for the defenders when opener has a balanced 17 count with a 4-card major and they have a better spot elsewhere. That mashes good with playing a sounder 1NT against 1M. 13-16 would be fine with me.

Against 5-card majorites, it is more tricky whaat do do over 1M, I suppose a wide range like 11-16 with a range inquiry would be best but I haven't worked that out in any partnership.
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#14 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 19:04

In practice I seem to bid it on about 10-16 after a major-suit opening, regardless of what range I've actually agreed. I've had a 2 range-ask written on the card in most of my partnerships for the past 20 years, but I can't actually remember either bidding it or replying to it.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#15 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 19:17

lol gnasher, exactly. I think the range 11-16 comes from necessity after 1S p p.

I mean, imo you cannot really pass with 11. It is so minus expectation to pass out 1S with 11, that I think even if your range is 12-15 or whatever, you should bid 1N with 11 and risk partner overbidding. It is just necessary.

On the other extreme, it just doesn't work out well to double and bid 2N with 16. It is so bad in general that I think even if your range is 11-15, you will do better to always bid 1N with 16 and risk partner underbidding.

A similar thing would happen if you played a 3N opener as 0-4 balanced, you would just do better to ignore it because opening 3N with 0-4 balanced will be a huge loser.

Of course these are just my opinions, and obviously if you share them you should just change your agreements. 11-16 is super wide and not really great but I think it just came from everything else being worse.


I am comfortable passing with 10 (or doubling with a doubleton spade) though. Perhaps my difference with gnasher comes from our differing styles of takeout doubles. Though I guess at MP w/w I would be unlikely to pass with 10, so effectively my range is different there.

Quote

Is "systems on" (or the 2C inquiry) legal over a super-wide-ranged NT overcall, when the same system would not be legal over a NT opening bid with the same range?


Heh, good question, never thought about that. I think the reasoning of disallowing systems over a super wide NT opener is because that NT range is deemed to be a destructive system without constructive merit (not commenting on the merits of this policy, but I'm pretty sure that's how it came about). My dad told me some stories of playing 10-17 NT and stuff, sounded fun heh.

Anyways, if that is the basis for it, I doubt it would be disallowed here since it is not being used for destructive purposes (obv, we're in the balancing seat). Of course this is not a good way to create a basis for what is legal and not, but in practice some rule or technicality is always invented to cater to whatever their real reasons are.
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-January-08, 20:48

After (1 any) _P (_P) ?? We play 1N = 15-18 even in the protective position.
We feel that 1N is fraught on a 10 count (especially if RHO would not "keep the bidding open" on tram-tickets)
With 8-14 we pass, bid a suit, or double. We lean over backwards to double. We feel that our best chance of a cricket-score is that partner is stacked in their suit with a near opening bid, so we like to double on as many hands as possible.
Obviously most think differently; so what is the flaw in our argument? Seriously. We'd like to know.
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#17 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-January-09, 03:25

View PostPhil, on 2011-January-08, 12:35, said:

11-14 (m) and 11-16 (M)I thought were standard.


It is. At least since Lawrence's balancing book came out :)

Just that some like it more narrow-ranging.
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#18 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2011-January-09, 05:08

BWS2001 default: "In reopening-position, a one-notrump overcall shows 10-14 (by a passed hand, 10 to a maximum non-opening)."

With a passed hand, I like to protect my partner, so sometimes, with as less as 8H, but a Quick trick, i will double our bid a 5card at one level.


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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-09, 13:12

View PostSiegmund, on 2011-January-08, 15:05, said:

Is "systems on" (or the 2C inquiry) legal over a super-wide-ranged NT overcall, when the same system would not be legal over a NT opening bid with the same range?

If you're talking about ACBL events, the answer is yes: "ALLOWED ... ALL CONSTRUCTIVE CALLS starting with the opening bidder’s second call."
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-April-21, 22:24

View PostArtK78, on 2011-January-08, 11:17, said:

A friend of mine who is well known on the ACBL tournament scene uses 10-16 HCP as his balancing NT. Partner uses a 2 inquiry for shape and range. It seems to work quite well.


I do the same, and I like it.
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