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2NT as invite or better raise to one of a major

#1 User is offline   WrecksVee 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 14:46

Can anyone provide responses to this conventional treatment? I have seen it being played. I am assuming 1M-2NT shows three plus card support and values to invite or better.

Any info as to other agreements that mesh well with this convention are appreciated.

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 15:04


---> 2NT Jacoby 2NT Plus
--------> 3C, no game interest or monster slam interest
--------> 3D, Game interest, no slam interest, but better than 4M
---------------> 3H now ask partner to show shortness anyway.
--------> 3H, ask for 2NT bidder to show shortness if you have
-------> 3S short in "other major"
-------> 4C/4C short in bid suit (if not bid before naturally)
-------> 4M Just enough for game, no more

The above was taken, I think, from Glen Ashton's Bridgematters websites.
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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 15:09

View Postinquiry, on 2010-December-10, 15:04, said:


---> 2NT Jacoby 2NT Plus
--------> 3C, no game interest or monster slam interest
--------> 3D, Game interest, no slam interest, but better than 4M
---------------> 3H now ask partner to show shortness anyway.
--------> 3H, ask for 2NT bidder to show shortness if you have
-------> 3S short in "other major"
-------> 4C/4C short in bid suit (if not bid before naturally)
-------> 4M Just enough for game, no more

The above was taken, I think, from Glen Ashton's Bridgematters websites.


Are those steps exactly the same whether it was opened 1 or 1 ?
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#4 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 07:10

I play:

1 - 2NT

3 = Minimum, no voids.
3 = Midimum and a shortness.
3 = Maximum and a shortness.
3 = Midimum, no shortness.
3NT = Maximum, No shortness.
4 = Void, minimum.
4 = Void, minimum.
4 = Void, minimum.
4 = Minimum, but with distribution. (Usually used facing a passed hand.)

After 3:

3 Re-invite
3 Asks for singleton
3 Sign-off
3NT = Suggestion to play. (Should be changed, have never been bid.)
4// = Singleton.

After 3/3, the relay asks for shortness.

When we open 1, 2 is Jacoby, and all steps go -1.

I'm not a fanatic about this scheme, but it has served me well.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#5 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 07:40

Bill Higgins, a sometimes poster here, has summarized/modified the Swedish-2NT = limit raise or better ( 4+ card support ).
Some of the treatment follows:

1M- 2NT!
??
3C! = any minimum; 3D! asks for shortage
3D! = extras ( 15,16+) no shortage
3H! = extras and Cl shortage
3S! = extras and Diam shortage
3NT! = extras and shortage in other Major


Note: after the minimum reply:
3C! - 3D! ( asking for shortage )
3H/3S/3NT! define shortage in the same suits as above

And the auction can be stopped below game also:
1M - 2NT!
3C! - 3M
pass
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 08:05

The version I played in Philadelphia:

2NT has limited types, unwound by 3, typically:

3 asks:

3 = 3-card unbalanced maximum limit (Opener then asks for shortness if interested)
3 = 3-card minimum limit
3 = 4441 pure splinter with 16+
3NT = 3-card max limit high controls
4bid = 3-card mixed limit (as to controls), cuebid
4M = 3-card max limit but poor controls

Opener can aqlso simply bid game, simply sign off, bid 3 as unbalanced slam relay, or rare other options.

This worked OK.
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#7 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 11:10

View Postinquiry, on 2010-December-10, 15:04, said:


---> 2NT Jacoby 2NT Plus
--------> 3C, no game interest or monster slam interest
--------> 3D, Game interest, no slam interest, but better than 4M
---------------> 3H now ask partner to show shortness anyway.
--------> 3H, ask for 2NT bidder to show shortness if you have
-------> 3S short in "other major"
-------> 4C/4C short in bid suit (if not bid before naturally)
-------> 4M Just enough for game, no more

The above was taken, I think, from Glen Ashton's Bridgematters websites.

My concern with this method is that if responder is unlimited then a respectable proportion of the time it is going to go 1M-2N-4M and responder may still have slam interest despite opener being thus far discouraging, and you have just taken out a huge amount of space. 5M may be at risk if the hand is particularly unsuitable. This is a general criticism of "fast arrival" methods opposite an unlimited partner.
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#8 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 11:55

What Elianna and I play is probably the simplest treatment (not necessarily best):

1M - 2NT = limit raise or better
----> 3M = minimum, would not accept LR, no shortness below 3M, not forcing
----> 3m, 3 if spades are trump = shortness, not specific about strength
----> 3 if hearts are trump = shortness, extra values
----> 3N = extras, no shortness, no slam interest opposite a limit raise
----> 4x (not 4M) = very serious extras, no shortness, cuebid showing slam interest opposite a limit raise
----> 4M = minimum values, no shortness, 6-7 trumps taking a shot at game

Continuations mostly as you would expect; 3M by responder shows a limit raise and is not forcing. We use non-serious 3NT to distinguish slam interest, so for example after 1M-2NT-3x responder can bid 3NT to show a game force without slam interest unless partner has extras, whereas cuebidding beyond 3NT shows slam interest even if opener is minimum. Responder jumping to 4M after opener shows shortage is an "upgraded" limit raise with a good holding opposite the short suit.
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#9 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 12:37

I play with one partner that 2NT is invitational or better with 4+ support. In my opinion that means that opener would always accept an invitation if he has shortness somewhere. The assumption that hands with shortness will force to game is part of the structure where the strength is divided into three ranges: MIN (~11-14), MED (~15-17) and MAX (~18-21). One point of this system is that the distribution is as little as possible. We try to show opener's distribution only when responder will be interested.

3: MIN or MAX, with unknown shortness (and therefore GF)
----3: Show your shortness, regardless of your strength (slam possibilities opposite a MIN)
----3: Show your shortness if you are MAX, otherwise bid 4M.
3: MIN or MAX, no shortness (not GF).
----3M: NF (Opener will pass or bid 4M with a MIN and cue or bid 4M with a MAX)
----3OM: Start cuebidding if you are MAX, otherwise bid 4M.
----higher: Cuebids, forcing opener to cooperate in cuebidding.
3: MED, no shortness (GF)
----Cuebids of 4M sign off
3-4: MED, //OM shortness
----Cuebids of 4M sign off

The advantage is that with a typical 13 opposite 13 hand, you will leave all possibilities open to explore for slam if partner has the needed extra's whereas you will not tell the opponents much if you only belong in game.

Rik
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#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 18:12

I will add this one to the BBF systems index, but I would like to point out that some pretty similar treatments have been discussed before. ;)

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#11 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 23:24

View Post1eyedjack, on 2010-December-11, 11:10, said:

My concern with this method is that if responder is unlimited then a respectable proportion of the time it is going to go 1M-2N-4M and responder may still have slam interest despite opener being thus far discouraging, and you have just taken out a huge amount of space. 5M may be at risk if the hand is particularly unsuitable. This is a general criticism of "fast arrival" methods opposite an unlimited partner.

Sims/actuals showed that big hands best to go very slow, not even disclosing the fit (e.g. 1M-2 ask/relay), thus 1M-2NT denies the big hand and 4M is "to play".
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#12 User is offline   hansen50 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 02:57

I use

1/ - 2NT

3 = unknown single, 11-14hp
3 = unknown void, 11-14hp
3 = unknown single, 15hp+
3 = unknown void, 15hp+
3NT = balanced, 11-14hp
4 = balanced, 15-18hp
4 = 19hp+
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 03:05

I'm used to play 1M-2 as a GF relay and it makes our 1M-2NT auctions balanced, fit, and INV/minimum GF. This helps a lot to not disclose too much information when it's not necessary. Opener can safely jump to 4M without being afraid he's preempting partner. There are 2 hand types we still want to show as opener: hands with shortness and hands with a strong second suit.

After 1-2NT (around 10-13HCP with 3+ and balanced):
3 = relay, asks about responder (he'll show min/max, 3/4, 4-3,...)
3 = SI, some shortness (3 asks)
3 = min, NF
3 = SI, strong second suit
3NT = suggestion to play
4m = SI, strong second suit
4 = to play

This can easily be used for 1-2NT as well, but you'll have an extra call available. That's why we actually use 1-3 to show this handtype instead of 1-2NT.
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#14 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 17:42

View PostFree, on 2010-December-14, 03:05, said:

... There are 2 hand types we still want to show as opener: hands with shortness and hands with a strong second suit. ...

We found there are a few types of the big hands that want to show - these were embedded into the Bergen constructive raise - that is 1M-3 (or 3 if you play that as constructive) became two-way, either constructive raise with 4+ trumps or a big hand with trump support and specific hand types. Opener assumes the constructive type and usually either bids 3M or 4M, and then responder shows the big hand type by bidding again - if over 4M the partnership will have enough values to reach at least slam since opener has extras to bid 4M and responder has strong playing values having points and shape.
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#15 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 20:38

Our structure is following:

3 minimum without void or monster with void
3 Extras but no shortness
3 Extras and some singleton
3/3NT 5 card good / suit
4x void

Actually I have 3/ answers swapped in other partnership, I'm not sure which one is really better.

Our 2NT promises always inv+ and 4 cards and balancedish. It can also be done with 3 card monster hand where you just want to ask some question and choose between small and grand. Third type that can bid it is hand with shortness that could make a slam with perfectly fitting double shortness.

We had something like Qxxx AKJxx x xxx opposite AKxxxx Qxx xxxx - and after 2NT it was easy to bid the slam. We don't have fitjump in hearts which might of course do the trick also.
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#16 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 10:28

1-2NT ;;;;2NT=10-14 balanced or any 15+
=>
3:any 15-17
3:any 18-19
3:minimum (only non forcing)
3:12-14 any void
3NT: 12-14 single
4: 12-14 single
4: 12-14 single
4: to play
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#17 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 10:42

I play 3 as a 2 way bid: shortness or minimum, 3 asks, rest are the same as 2NT GF
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#18 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-December-16, 03:31

View Postkgr, on 2010-December-15, 10:28, said:

1-2NT ;;;;2NT=10-14 balanced or any 15+
=>
3:any 15-17
3:any 18-19
3:minimum (only non forcing)
3:12-14 any void
3NT: 12-14 single
4: 12-14 single
4: 12-14 single
4: to play

I've seen this and believe you also show shortness after 3m rebids the way you do with 12-14. This sucks because when you have 18-19 balanced you're at 4M and skipped all your cues...
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