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an auction

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 18:42

2/1, 15-17 nt, MP, dealer north, vuln = none



1N:2
2:3
4:?
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#2 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 19:08

I would bid 4NT asking for Keycards.

With 2 Keycards 6 Spades
With 3 Keycards I would bid 5NT showing all controls
and after hearing partner reply would think about 7Spades or 6NT
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 20:35

Why did I bid 3? That denies a spade fit and muddies up the auction. Some sort of good spade raise preferably showing club shortness looks warranted.

Now, 4 looks like a cue bid for diamonds, so I have to work backward. I do expect four diamonds, but I'll KC and over expected 5 or 5, 5N will get a 6 response (I have to be able to tolerate 6N) and I can 7N.

Hey, maybe 3 worked out all right since I know partner has some diamond length!
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#4 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 20:53

View Postdickiegera, on 2010-December-09, 19:08, said:

I would bid 4NT asking for Keycards.

I wouldn't know which suit it was for.

I wonder if there was a way to bid keycard over 2?
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 20:56

View PostPhil, on 2010-December-09, 20:35, said:

Why did I bid 3? That denies a spade fit and muddies up the auction. Some sort of good spade raise preferably showing club shortness looks warranted.



I don't know if 3 does deny a fit. It shows a hand with atleast one major, diamonds and slam interest. What would you bid over 2?
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#6 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 21:13

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-09, 20:56, said:

I don't know if 3 does deny a fit. It shows a hand with atleast one major, diamonds and slam interest. What would you bid over 2?


If I had a gadget here I would use it and my gadget of choice is 3 to show a good raise with shortness.

If I were playing with a very intelligent partner who shunned gadgets, I would bid 3, which has to be a spade raise.

If I were playing with a novice that just learned RKC, I would roll out 4N, since my partner would not understand this to be a quantitative call.

If I were playing with an intermediate, 4 as RKC is a good idea.

Come to think of it, 4 (or 4) RKC is probably a good idea anyway, regardless of the level of my partner. I am so used to not using any form of Gerber that I have a mental block and do not use it even when its not a bad idea. :P
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 02:54

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-09, 20:56, said:

I don't know if 3 does deny a fit. It shows a hand with atleast one major, diamonds and slam interest. What would you bid over 2?

4C over 2S showing a splinter raise looks normal. If you play the 3H concealed splinter gadget that is also a possibility. I think it is more common to use 3H here as simply a good spade raise though. Assuming you do this is also an option and, although you are unlikely to hear anything useful, you can at least RKC next time round with clarity as to trump suit.
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#8 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 05:23

Phil and Zel touched on the Stayman Structure for a GF, slammish Responder:

1NT - 2C
2S - ??
3H! = fit, shortness somewhere; next step (3S!) asks
4D! = fit, no shortness, artificial slamtry
4C! = fit, RKC Gerber for Sp

3C/3D = no fit, longer minor suit
4NT = no fit, quantitative

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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 05:27

This is a part of standard NT bidding that is unfortunately not well-established. 3 is indeed logically a spade raise, but with the majors reversed, 3 over 2 is not necessarily obviously an artificial raise (it could be a splinter or an "anonymous splinter" to quote my good friend kfay). 3 does, however, deny 4 spades, but of course if you later jump to 6 or something, your partner will understand, but don't expect him to co-operate intelligently until then (his only co-operation will be the pass of 6).
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#10 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 06:12

There's an article in the most recent ACBL Bulletin, Billy Miller maybe, about a structure similar to what some here have suggested. Milly calls it "modified Baze".
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 06:40

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-09, 20:56, said:

I don't know if 3 does deny a fit. It shows a hand with atleast one major, diamonds and slam interest. What would you bid over 2?

I would bid 4C over 2S. I don't like the 3D bid either; you have effectively buried the spade fit.
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#12 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 07:57

What I've always assumed was expert standard:

1N:2C
2M:
....3m = 4oM, 6m (Some do this with 5), GF of course
....3oM = anonymous splinter; next step asks (if 3H:3S, you can decide if N/C/D is H/C/D splinter or a C/D/H. I prefer the former.)
....4C = RKC
....4D = balanced slam try with 4 card supp.

Definitely this is worth discussing, since you can free up a 4D bid (for whatever you want) over the balanced slam try if you reverse the 4C/4D bids.

edit: of course, I come from the same 'school' as kfay (he was in the honors program, though).
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#13 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 08:09

The small slam is a given.

The proper grand slam needs a bit of info.
If all the key cards are found, you don't need to ask about Kings:

1NT - 2C
2S - 4C! ( RKC Gerber for Sp )
4D ( 3 keys) - 6D! ( 3 Rnd Ctrl ask )
??
..6S = x x x ( no 3rd Rnd Ctrl )
..7S = x x ( small doubleton )
..6NT = dQ
..7D = dQJ

With the 6NT or 7D reply, correct to 7NT .

With the 7S reply, just pass .

With the 6S reply, Edit: just pass


Edit....since this is RKCG, 5D! can be the 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask ( bypassing the K-ask step of 5C )
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#14 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 10:21

View Postwyman, on 2010-December-10, 07:57, said:

What I've always assumed was expert standard:

1N:2C
2M:
....3m = 4oM, 6m (Some do this with 5), GF of course
....3oM = anonymous splinter; next step asks (if 3H:3S, you can decide if N/C/D is H/C/D splinter or a C/D/H. I prefer the former.)
....4C = RKC
....4D = balanced slam try with 4 card supp.

Not only would I say that this is not expert standard, but I believe this treatment (sometimes called Baze) is pretty bad...

The method I believe to be standard (without special agreement):

3OM = slammish raise of partner's major suit
4x (not 4M) = splinter raise of partner's suit

Why do I think this is better? The main reason is that you can have a sensible cuebidding auction when you have two (semi)-balanced hands with a fit. The 4 balanced slam try suggested above leaves no space at all below 4M to get controls sorted out. Anonymous splinters have some advantage when partner will often bypass the asking bid, thus giving less information to the opposition.. but here with opener quite limited in strength and responder effectively unlimited, it's not clear when/whether/how he should choose not to ask. If he's always asking, it's better to splinter directly. Basically the only gain from the "Baze" structure you gave is the ability to bid RKC and then bail in 4M. But hands where the right treatment is to bid RKC right away without any cuebids and where you really need to be able to bail below 5M (so bidding 3OM...4NT in my approach gets you too high) are quite odds-against. I'll take my ability to cuebid sensibly over this any day.
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 17:39

I don't think anything is standard here.

We play 3 as a minor suit enquiry and 4m as natural and forcing with 4/5 or 6m (we play 3m NF), so I'd bid 4 as a slam try here, now 4N over partner's 4 will be keycard.

Looking at your actual heart holding, if 4 is exclusion you're in equally good shape to use it.
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#16 User is offline   bucky 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 18:20

It is imperative to have bids that set up major suit as trump after 1NT - 2C - 2M. Just as a general principle, being able to set up trump in earlier bidding will greatly clarify later bids. The 3 bid here, even if agreed as not to deny spade support yet, runs the risk of complicating further bids with the ambiguity.

Some of the bids mentioned by others are semi-standard (e.g. 3OM showing support with stiff somewhere, 4C as RKC, 4D as balanced slam try with support), although recently I saw an article advocating to switch the meanings of 4C and 4D to conserve room after balanced slam try. Lacking these methods, a simpler agreement is to use the OM bid as setting up M as trump. Here, after 1NT-2-2, 3 is pretty much an idle bid in many structures, therefore it can be used to announce spade fit and at least mild slam interest.
 
 
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 22:15

Thanks all, I'll be talking with my partner to revamp our responses after 1N:2C 2M
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#18 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 22:39

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-09, 18:42, said:

2/1, 15-17 nt, MP, dealer north, vuln = none



1N:2
2:3
4:?



4h kickback(in d)... I think you play kickback in other posts.


1) 3d=nat gf
2) we all learn here on the forums over the years that 4c=cue agree d.......


3) 3s at first will just be a try for 3nt... On this auction all bids under 3nt =try for 3nt at first.....
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-December-10, 23:44

View Postmike777, on 2010-December-10, 22:39, said:

4h kickback(in d)... I think you play kickback in other posts.


1) 3d=nat gf
2) we all learn here on the forums over the years that 4c=cue agree d.......


3) 3s at first will just be a try for 3nt... On this auction all bids under 3nt =try for 3nt at first.....


Sorry, I dont understand your post.

4h kickback(in d)... - are you suggesting I bid 4 as kickback after 4?

1) agree
2) my partner bid 4c as 's, he doesn't read forums
3) 3s at first will just be a try for 3nt.. - when? 3/2 is a game try in , or nt
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And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#20 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 00:51

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-10, 23:44, said:

Sorry, I dont understand your post.

4h kickback(in d)... - are you suggesting I bid 4 as kickback after 4?

1) agree
2) my partner bid 4c and 's, he doesn't read forums
3) 3s at first will just be a try for 3nt.. - when? 3/2 is a game try in , or nt



Yes...yes yes

4c=cue in d...so



if not 4c you bid 4h.....4h=rkc in d


If you bid 4c(cue in c agree d) then 4h by anyone =rkc in d


4h=rkc ace in d.....d are trm ...........


assuming you play kickback per other posts yes easy. easy 4h.......ace rck in d

-------------


letme put it this way if d are trump then 4h is the way...only way to rkc in d.
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