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nmf question

#1 User is offline   babalu1997 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 12:05

A new minor forcing forces to what?
I always thought it forced to game.

yesterday I watched as opps bid 1club-p-1heart-p-1nt all pass

it turned out that responder had about 7 hcp and 5 hearts, and they were playing 15-17 no trump

1nt was just a fine contract, but a 2 hearts rebid over 1nt would have been ok.

Later my partner wondered whether responder should have bid new minor forcing, and I said no because i understood that new minor forces to game, and she did not have sufficient to force to game.

I was also glad the hand in question was not dealt to my partner.

And another question:

Does checkback styamna force to game or can be issued in attempt to settle for a partial?

thanks

View PostFree, on 2011-May-10, 03:57, said:

Babalu just wanted a shoulder to cry on, is that too much to ask for?
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#2 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 12:19

It certainly isn't forcing to game as you need to be able to invite sometimes. If you are playing NMF and the "new minor" is diamonds then you really need to play that it guarantees at least invitational values. If you are playing checkback (always 2) then you don't need to, but I imagine a lot of people do.
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#3 User is offline   losercover 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 12:52

We play checkback and it shows 10 points and a 5 card major. Supporting your partner after 2 clubs is not forcing. A jump raise is forcing. A minimum fit can be played at the two level. The only new minor forcing we play is 1m, 1M,2m; a bid of the other minor shows the same as the checkback.
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#4 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 13:49

The auction begins 1 1 1NT.

You, the heart bidder, might have six hearts and a six count and you might have five hearts and an eleven count (of course among other things). In the first case you want to sign off in 2 and you bid it. In the second case you may or may not want to be in game and you may or may not want to be in hearts. You bid 2 and await the response. Since partner can have anything from two hearts and a twelve count to three hearts and a fourteen count, you clearly need this not to be game forcing.

Now there are some variants: 1 1 1NT 2 2NT 3
This auction I play as forcing. Compare it with
1 1 1NT 3
This I play as invitational, though some play it as weak.

So there are things to discuss. But for starters, the 2 shows invitational values or better.
Ken
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#5 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 14:51

NMF is invitational or better when we are looking for a major. It is GF when we go back to a minor (and imply 5-5).

FWIW, 2-way NMF is actually simpler.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#6 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 16:30

Phil's response confirms the need for discussion.

1 1 1NT 2 2NT 3

A person with four, not five, hearts might bid this way I think. Imagine a hand with clubs, four hearts, and goodly values. Partner opens a club, bidding one heart seems right, partner rebids 1NT. I don't really know what 4 would be, but neither 2 nor 3 is forcing so, if you want to play at least in some game and also leave open the possibility of a club slam, I think you need to start with 2.

I suppose that this is why nmf is sometimes replaced by more sophisticated variants. But playing nmf, I think 2 could be on four hearts, long clubs, and strong values. In particular, if opener bids 3 over 2, showing three hearts and a max, a bid of 4 by responder should be taken as fixing clubs as trump, not as a cue. That's how I play it anyway, and to see the sense of it you just have to imagine the four hearts, the long clubs, the strong hand, and ask yourself how you imagine the auction going after partner opens 1.

Not something that arises often. Mostly nmf is checking for the major fit.

Another point to discuss:


1 1 1NT:

You are the spade bidder and you are 5-5 in the majors.

2 is pass or correct. But beyond that you could bid a direct 3 or you could bid 2 and then, lacking a spade fit, bid 3. One of these is forcing, the other invitational. I play the direct jump as invitational to fit in with the general dictum that all natural jumps by responder at his second turn are invitational (one rule covers all, easy to remember). But I would not bet my life that a pick-up plays it the same way.
Ken
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 17:24

Well said, Kenberg. I play the same way.

NMF in and of itself is NOT GF; it is what follows that can establish a GF.

Opener bids 1-minor
Responder has an inverted minor raise ( GF ) BUT also a 4 card Major.
He first bids his major :

1C - 1S
1NT - 2D!( NMF )
2S - 3C ( cancels interest in the major suit; is a GF+ minor raise instead )
_________________
2S = 3 cards Sp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If Responder had invitational values he would have bid a 3C-jump over 1NT:
1C - 1S
1NT - 3C

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In general:
>> Responder starts all game forcing auctions with NMF.

>> The jumps are all invitational ( or weak if you agree to that ).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ps. for Kenberg: How important is it for Opener ( 12-14 hcp ) to show a MAX ( 14 ) with a "jump" ?
It sure makes it more difficult for Responder to to show his real intent:
1C - 1S
1NT - 2D!
3S ( 3 cards w/max) - 4C ( cancels interest in the major suit; is a GF+ minor raise instead )

It sure interferes with the ability to use Minorwood ( or Kickback ) if you need a few cuebids first.
In other words, I would rather confine Opener's NMF replies to the 2-level.
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#8 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 17:46

True enough. Given the limited frequency, I just let it slide.

My guess is that if I wanted to seriously think it through I would end up going for checkback or maybe something other than nmf. I don't know two-way, maybe that's better.
Ken
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#9 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 17:53

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-December-06, 17:24, said:

ps. for Kenberg: How important is it for Opener ( 12-14 hcp ) to show a MAX ( 14 ) with a "jump" ?
It sure makes it more difficult for Responder to to show his real intent:
1C - 1S
1NT - 2D!
3S ( 3 cards w/max) - 4C ( cancels interest in the major suit; is a GF+ minor raise instead )

It sure interferes with the ability to use Minorwood ( or Kickback ) if you need a few cuebids first.
In other words, I would rather confine Opener's NMF replies to the 2-level.

Well, you do need to distinguish good and bad hands without a major after 2, since there is no room for an invite. Continuations of 2=4 hearts, any strength; 2=3 spades any strength; 2NT=no major, min; 3C=no major, max are certainly playable though.
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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-06, 18:48

View Postcampboy, on 2010-December-06, 17:53, said:

Well, you do need to distinguish good and bad hands without a major after 2, since there is no room for an invite. Continuations of 2=4 hearts, any strength; 2=3 spades any strength; 2NT=no major, min; 3C=no major, max are certainly playable though.

Here's one jump reply by Opener which I found interesting on an old message board, but I've yet to use ( by agreement):
1m - 1S
1NT - 2om! ( NMF)
3H jump = 3s/4h, max
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-December-07, 03:47

I've always known any form of NMF or checkback to be invite+.
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#12 User is offline   lexlogan 

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Posted 2010-December-07, 15:26

The only players I've seen use NMF with weak hands are those who don't think twice about landing in 2NT with 18-21 combined hcp. If opener does not have 3 of the major, there isn't room for much else. Therefore, NMF basically shows a hand that is worth a 2NT invitation or 3NT game bid, but wants to check on a major suit fit along the way. With 5 of the major and not enough to nvite game, rebid the major if partner promises at least 2 cards in your suit, pass if he doesn't or you aren't sure.

I think the best alternative to NMF is XYZ, but I've not played it extensively.
Paul Hightower
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-December-09, 03:40

The usual rule for PUPs playing NMF is for the rebid after the new minor to be 1 step stronger than directly making the rebid. So 1D - 1S - 1NT - 2S is weak whereas 1D - 1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S is invitational. As others have mentioned, if you want a low-level artificial game-force then it is better to play 2-way checkback.
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