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Transfers over 2N rebid

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 15:25

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

1:1
2N: ?

How do you find your 5-3 or 4-4 fit now?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 15:36

I'm a simple soul that plays checkback

3 relay with 4 answers:

-3 = 4 and 3/4
-3 = 2/3 + 3/4
-3 = 4 + 2
-3NT = 2/3 + 2

appart from 3, 3 and 3 are natural and set our fit, 3 shows clubs. but bidding 1 then 3 would show a 5-5 hand.

This is all fine when you play sound responses and don't need to play contracts at the 3 level.

On a side note, when I overload 2NT rebid with 1 suiters, 3->3 is a strong 1 suiter in the suit opened
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#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 18:11

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-10, 15:25, said:

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

1:1
2N: ?

How do you find your 5-3 or 4-4 fit now?


1-1
2NT-3*
3**-3***
3nt****

* Hey, I have a 5th heart!
** Uhhuh.
*** I also have 4 spades!
**** Well, too bad, I'm 3244.

1-1
2NT-3*
3**-3NT***
4****

* I have 4 spades!
** Uhhuh.
*** Let's play a game!
**** OK.

Etc.
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 18:26

mgoetze is right. This is further along those lines and there is actually a lot more than can be packed in here (if for example 3N is made forcing and if 3S is a puppet or has multiple meanings)

1D-1H, 2N

3C-forces 3D
.....3D-forced
..........3H-6 hearts, slam try
..........3S-diamond fit, slam try
..........3N-COG with 5 hearts
3D-transfer
.....3H-forced
..........3S-4 spades
..........3N-demands correction to 4H with fit
3H-transfer with 4S/4H only
3S-club slam try
3N-to play
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#5 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 00:28

I like the method where 3C is the catchall weak hand or minor slam try (Wolff style, forces 3D) and bids of 3D or higher are then logically game forcing transfers. The slam auctions are easier because on an auction like

1D - 1H
2N - 3D
3H

we have agreed to play in hearts, and opener can bid 3N to deny heart support (or 3S to show 4 spades).
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#6 User is offline   Jboling 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 06:17

I play these tranfers slightly different:
1. Transfer to a already bid suit is forced, because it might be sign-off. Super-accepting is ok, you then bid something else but completion of the transfer.
2. Transfer to a new suit asks for a four card fit, and is only completed with one, other bids are natural and denies a fit in the transfer suit. This makes it almost impossible to stop at the three-level in a new suit, but makes it easier to agree the trump suit, in case responder is interested in slam.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 07:43

View Postmgoetze, on 2010-November-10, 18:11, said:

1-1
2NT-3*
3**-3***
3nt****

* Hey, I have a 5th heart!
** Uhhuh.
*** I also have 4 spades!
**** Well, too bad, I'm 3244.

1-1
2NT-3*
3**-3NT***
4****

* I have 4 spades!
** Uhhuh.
*** Let's play a game!
**** OK.

Etc.


In the second auction 3S shows 4 spades. In the first auction 3H is more or less forced and responder might pass it.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 07:50

Also, after 1C - 1H - 2NT - 3C (showing diamonds), opener will often bid 3H with 3 hearts, and can bid 3D with only 3. Responder can be weak with 5-5 in the reds.

By the way, I play that 3C is either a transfer to diamonds or a single suited slam try (with a 5+ major). Opener will often bid 3D and then 3M shows the single suited slam try. An auction like

1C - 1H
2NT - 3D
3H - 4C

is then natural and really shows 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs.

I learned this modifaction from Wortel, a Dutch bridge player.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#9 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 08:36

1 - 1
2nt -
3 = I have five hearts, might have four spades.
3 = I have four spades, but only four hearts.
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#10 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 08:57

Depends what you like to respond with 6 diamonds and 4 in a major, some people seem to like bidding 1M with weak hands. Then it probably makes sense to have 3 force 3.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#11 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 10:25

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-10, 15:25, said:

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

1:1
2N: ?

How do you find your 5-3 or 4-4 fit now?


3 shows 5
3 shows invitational+ support
3 shows invitational 6 card suit
3 shows 4 and 4
if you have 5 and 4 you call 3 and with 4 partner is supposed to bid 3
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 13:22

As the posts show, many players have methods over 2N rebids. Posting versions of wolff is not exactly responding to the OP, so here goes...my scheme is similar to a few of the ones posted so far.

All 3 level suit bids over 2N are transfers, but not all of them are mandatory.

Mandatory:

1) a transfer back to the suit responder bid. Opener must accept...responder may be about to pass
2) a transfer to 3. This is true whether or not anyone has so far bid the suit. Note that this is only so for walsh players, where 1 1M may be on a weak 4=6, with long diamonds, and now responder intends to pass 3. If you don't play this style, then 3, showing diamonds, becomes an optional transfer....opener 'accepts' only when he prefers diamonds to responder's major.

Optional:

A transfer into a new major is optional: opener accepts only with 4 card support.

A bid of 3 is a club transfer but opener will often (usually?) bid 3N instead. We play 3 as mild interest in a club slam, or better...with better, responder pulls 3N should opener bid that.

Examples:

1 1
2N 3: mandatory transfer...promises 5+ spades.

1 1
2N 3: optional transfer...responder promises 5+ spades and 4+ hearts (note that if you play meckwell 2 over 1, you have inferences about strength here)

Opener bids 3 with 4 hearts, 3 with 3 spades and fewer than 4 hearts, 3N with 2=3 or 2=2 in the majors. I suggest that any bid by opener beyond 3N be a cuebid, with a super acceptance in hearts (I actually suggest bidding the higher of touching Aces, so that, for instance, 4 would deliver the club, diamond and heart Aces)

With 4=4 in the majors, responder rebids 3, optional transfer to spades.

With 4 spades and longer hearts, transfer to 3 and then bid 3.

With a 5 card major and wanting to give a choice of 3N or 4M, transfer to the major and bid 3N (or 4N quantitative with slam interest or 5N choice of slams with slam-postive values and no grand slam interest)

With a mild slam try and 6+ major, transfer to the major and then bid game...if you merely want to play 4major..bid it over 2N....going slow shows slam interest....the same principle as applies when one uses Jacoby transfers and jumps to 4major (so long as one has texas as well).

No scheme is perfect and this one isn't an exception to that general rule, but I have played several methods over 2N rebids and this has been, in my experience, the best.

There are further topics such as retransfers at the 4-level in some auctions, but they aren't necessary to the method, rarely arise, are prone to memory issues, and can be worked out, with a little effort, by anyone who has got this far.
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#13 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 16:57

One possible modification to Mikeh's approach is to play: 1m-1-2N-3 as forcing opener to choose a major. The sequence shows 5+ and 4+, and opener is expected to bid 3 with four-card hearts or bid 3 with two or three spades without four hearts. This allows responder to reach the best fit with a weak 5-4, rather than being forced to transfer to spades regardless, and doesn't seem to have much downside (GF hands can bid 3NT next and opener corrects to spades with three; slammish hands can pattern out at the four level).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 17:29

I'd like to see anyone of these methods get to slam with the following hand.
One thing that must happen is that Opener needs to find out about Responder's SIX cards in .
Just showing 3 cards won't cut it.
And Responder does NOT have a 2nd 4 card suit.
Most of these systems seem to have bids for a 2nd suit.

It was posted here ( in A & E ) back in Sept 9, 2009 by dicklont [http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry393388 ] .

The title was: Slam try after 2NT rebid .

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.

skaeran said :

Quote

Transfers after a jump to 2NT is very easy to use, and is also efficient.

But he did not elaborate.... even when asked.


1D - 1H
2NT - ?? continue ( and explain )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now gnasher said a 4D!-jump ( after 2NT ) is a self-splinter for Hts ( showing 6+hts )! !
I liked it, but is it really ?
I do know that 4D! is a self-splinter in the following auction ( after a 1NT rebid ):
1D - 1H
1NT- 4D! ( because if it were a real Diam support bid, Responder would go through NMF first ! )
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#15 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 18:15

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-11, 17:29, said:

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.


Oh you want to know about my system? :-P

1-1 (Clubs or 11-13 balanced or 17-19 balanced; Transfer to hearts)
1NT-2 (17-19 balanced; GF relay)
2-2 (4432 type with 2 hearts; relay)
3-3 (4243; sets hearts, slam interest)
3-3NT (cue; serious)
4-4 (cue; RKCB)
5-5 (0/3; scan)
5NT-6 (Q, K, no K; signoff)

However, it's rather off-topic here.
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 20:49

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-11, 17:29, said:

I'd like to see anyone of these methods get to slam with the following hand.
One thing that must happen is that Opener needs to find out about Responder's SIX cards in .
Just showing 3 cards won't cut it.
And Responder does NOT have a 2nd 4 card suit.
Most of these systems seem to have bids for a 2nd suit.

It was posted here ( in A & E ) back in Sept 9, 2009 by dicklont [http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry393388 ] .

The title was: Slam try after 2NT rebid .

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.

skaeran said :

But he did not elaborate.... even when asked.


1D - 1H
2NT - ?? continue ( and explain )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now gnasher said a 4D!-jump ( after 2NT ) is a self-splinter for Hts ( showing 6+hts )! !
I liked it, but is it really ?
I do know that 4D! is a self-splinter in the following auction ( after a 1NT rebid ):
1D - 1H
1NT- 4D! ( because if it were a real Diam support bid, Responder would go through NMF first ! )



Any hand on which every card is working will be difficult to bid without comples relay methods, but the method I posted has a chance if, but only if, responder views his hand as worth a mild slam try. In which case, it is trivial: responder transfers to 3, which is mandatory, and then raises to 4, showing a 6+ suit and mild slam interest, over which opener has a trival decision to force to slam.

Alternatively, there is much to be said for opener upgrading to 2N, with all those controls
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 23:51

View Postawm, on 2010-November-11, 16:57, said:

One possible modification to Mikeh's approach is to play: 1m-1-2N-3 as forcing opener to choose a major. The sequence shows 5+ and 4+, and opener is expected to bid 3 with four-card hearts or bid 3 with two or three spades without four hearts. This allows responder to reach the best fit with a weak 5-4, rather than being forced to transfer to spades regardless, and doesn't seem to have much downside (GF hands can bid 3NT next and opener corrects to spades with three; slammish hands can pattern out at the four level).

you don't need this (in fact, it would be a waste) if you play a jump to 2 in response to 1minor as meckwell, as I do
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#18 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-November-12, 02:54

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-11, 13:22, said:

There are further topics ...

One is the distinction between
1-1
2NT-3
3-3

1-1
2NT-3
3-3NT

1-1
2NT-3
3-4
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#19 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-12, 09:19

View Postgnasher, on 2010-November-12, 02:54, said:

One is the distinction between
1-1
2NT-3
3-3

1-1
2NT-3
3-3NT

1-1
2NT-3
3-4

1. 5-5 or better in spades and diamonds, forcing

2.depends on style. If playing 'strong walsh' in which one bypasses long diamonds to bid spades unless one has an opening hand, then this can be 4=5/6 with a near-opener. Otherwise it is 5-5 with doubt about 3N.

3. spades are trump, 4 is a cuebid

this is based on a style wherein one opens 1 with 4-4 minors. If you open 1, then the transfer to diamonds could, I suppose, be more frequently on a 4 card suit...but I don't play that style so am merely speculating.
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#20 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2013-February-04, 14:13

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-11, 13:22, said:

I suggest that any bid by opener beyond 3N be a cuebid, with a super acceptance in hearts (I actually suggest bidding the higher of touching Aces, so that, for instance, 4 would deliver the club, diamond and heart Aces)


Sorry to go off topic (happy to be redirected to the appropriate one) but what is this cue-bidding style and when should it apply? You've piqued my interest.
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