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Granovetters' "Best Defense to Multi" Anyone with experience?

#1 User is offline   Bende 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 06:10

Does anyone have experience with "The Best Defense to Multi" as suggested by Matt and Pamela Granovetter? Opinions from anyone without experience also welcome :). The idea of the defense is to use the ambiguity of the multi against its practitioners with weakish overcalls on the three level.

(2) -
pass + dbl = takeout of bid major
dbl = overcall in one major (later dbl by you or partner shows the other major)
2 = strong overcall with clubs
2 = strong overcall with diamonds
2NT = natural
3 = weakish overcall with clubs
3 = weakish overcall with diamonds
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#2 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 06:26

I assume the idea is to force opponents to show their major before you do with a natural overcall. This is a good idea, but if you pass with all T/O hands opponents can use you in horrible ways:

1. 2 Pass Pass!
2. 2 Pass 2 Pass Pass! (opener is NV and holds )

Also I think the main goal of the "weak" 3m overcalls should be to still reach 3NT, i.e a good suit with 11 - 14 points. The strong ones should be 15 - 18 points.

A 3rd deficit is that the ONLY way to show your major is by doubling. After

2 X 2 it is very well possible that we have the . In this case the auction may again end here when opps are NV, knocking you out of 4. Or when there is a raise to 3, you now Dbl with . At this level partner can no longer invite: He has to decide between 3 or some game.

2 X 2 Pass
3 X Pass 3

What do you do with:

AKJxx
Ax
AJxx
xx

No sure fit, so 3 might fail, or 4 makes an overtrick. Who knows?

Same problem, other side:

2 X 2 Pass
3 X Pass ?

xx
xx
KQxx
Kxxxx

Again no sure game, no good stoppers. Still try 4 and hope partner makes it?

3rd problem: How do you bid with an oversize balanced hand like this one?

AKx
Axx
AJx
KJxx

You are too strong for an overcall of 2NT, and Dbl would show a major. If you pass, how are you EVER going to show your hand? A delayed 2NT may not be possible, and

2 Pass 2 Pass
3 3NT

feels REALLY bad.

In short: No thank you.
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 06:28

I have tried

x=one major or a big hand
2M=takeout of the other major

this worked out nicely because you could show your takeout hands immediately and it caused a little bit of chaos in the bidding, which is always nice.

I don't like passing in the first round of the auction when I would have acted over a weak 2, so I don't like the method from the opening post.
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#4 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 06:33

Quote

this worked out nicely because you could show your takeout hands immediately and it caused a little bit of chaos in the bidding, which is always nice.


Agree with trying to bid directly with most hands.

Chaos? Responder won't be bothered, as he will just bid his P/C and partner will convert. I do hope that you won't confuse yourself.
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#5 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 07:06

I've played multi vs multi in the past, it has some similarities. The point of bidding 3m immediately is to disrupt their methods. They may have a 10 card fit without values to safely compete to the 3-level.

The suggested defense is ok, but it doesn't work against mini-multi (which is NF). Also you don't get penalty Doubles, which imo is something you really want.
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#6 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:09

2: Multi
pass: Teehee, I'm going to show my takeout of hearts later!
4: OK Partner, let's play 4 of your major
pass: I'd love to bid but this is pretty high and partner might have nothing...
4: Yup, I have a weak 2 in hearts
uhm...?
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-18, 10:15

Famously, one of the early successes of the multi at top level came against the English team (one of the favourites at that time) when 2nd hand has to pass with a big hand and 2D got passed out. The English missed out on going forward by a timy margin. Since that time practially all serious defences against the multi have acted with good hands. Gwynn's method is (imho) better and there is a good, fairly detailed write-up of Multi-against-Multi at Chris Ryall's site. His conclusion, that it is a great defence but not worth the memory overhead, is probably about right. Of course, if in America you can have it all written out for you that rather moves the goalposts...
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#8 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2010-October-18, 10:31

This is our Multi defense, and we like it much - we had to discuss 4th seats actions tho in depth.
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#9 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2010-October-21, 07:48

View Postmgoetze, on 2010-October-18, 10:09, said:

2: Multi
pass: Teehee, I'm going to show my takeout of hearts later!
4: OK Partner, let's play 4 of your major
pass: I'd love to bid but this is pretty high and partner might have nothing...
4: Yup, I have a weak 2 in hearts
uhm...?

This is why you need to make takeout doubles directly over 2D.

In Philly I played a very simple defense that seemed to work very well:
X - Takeout of Spades (or a Strong Hand -- Effectively a Double and Correct)
2H - Takeout of Hearts
2S - Natural
2N - 15+ - 18 BAL
3C/D/H - Natural
4m - Leaping Michaels

However, I think Csaba's defense is probably better.
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2010-October-24, 09:59

I usually play the (very popular in England) defence of dbl showing a weak NT and bids natural, but I do play this in one partnership.
You need the double also to include any "very strong hand" i.e. it is a normal overall in one major, or about 19+
You also need to discuss fourth hand's continuations after 2D (2M) P ?

It works better as a defence against the "ploppy multi" as it's sometimes called - the 2D opening showing a bad weak two in either major. As sometimes played this can be Jxxxx in the suit. Now you are at risk of overcalling in their suit if you play 2M as natural.

After 2D x 2H (POC) x is just "take-out" i.e. we are playing here if hearts is your suit.
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#11 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2010-October-25, 14:41

I've been playing Multi-versus-Multi for a lot of years (pretty much as described by Chris Rydal on his paradox webpage (Chris's multi-versus-multi page). I find it very good, and not all that hard to remember, since I play multi 2 myself. One great feature is you do not have to pass with good hands (avoids the deadly 2D-pass-pass! mentioned earlier). Another advantage is 2-2 showing the balanced hand, which allows advancer to pass when weak with hearts or he can bid 2 to play.

I am surprised how often it goes 2=x (a major, a three suiter, or 19-22 balanced), all pass when partner has diamonds. The multi=2 bidders seem to be confused. If Responder passes with a weak hand (bad), opener often thinks responder has diamonds and wants to play 2X. Opener and Responder need to figure out what responders pass of this double means or you will get a lot of surprizing gifts.

I greatly prefer multi-versus-multi, but grandover's methos isn't horrible.
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#12 User is offline   bucky 

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Posted 2010-October-25, 17:44

View PostGerben42, on 2010-October-18, 06:26, said:

Also I think the main goal of the "weak" 3m overcalls should be to still reach 3NT, i.e a good suit with 11 - 14 points. The strong ones should be 15 - 18 points.

No, by design, the main goal of the "weak" 3m ovecall is a preemptive strike before LHO finds out about RHO's real major suit. Granovetters gave an example of overcalling with KQJxxx of clubs and out, bought the contract (and making), while opponents missed their game in 11-card major fit.

View PostGerben42, on 2010-October-18, 06:26, said:

A 3rd deficit is that the ONLY way to show your major is by doubling.

Not really. A direct 3M overcall is still natural and strong. But yes, I agree there can be problems when you hold a fairly strong hand with 5-card major suit.
 
 
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