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Multi defence

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 07:45

What we do is not so common but has worked okay so far. We play:

(2)  X = tko of spades
      2 = tko of hearts.

We like to make our takeouts early, to avoid being preempted. Yes we lose a 2 overcall. Anyway, bear with it.
Given that method, what does this mean:

(2)  No  (2)  no
(no)  X ?

Is it weak tko or wanting to defend?
K654   54   AQ73   JT2 ? Or

J76   AJ4   KQT5  AT8 ?
(because all tko hands act first time)

PS. What would a delayed 2NT be?
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 09:07

Hi:

The delayed double of hearts 2D-p-2H-p-p-X could be played as a light takeout X

Delayed 2NT is minors.

Regards,
Robert
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#3 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 09:49

I think it should be penalty double with ().
Something like: xx AQTxx Axx Kxx.

Same as:
2 pass 2 pass
2 dbl = penalty, because with t/o of spades you dbl round before.
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#4 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 19:33

bluecalm, on Sep 3 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

I think it should be penalty double with ().
Something like: xx AQTxx Axx Kxx.

Same as:
2 pass 2 pass
2 dbl = penalty, because with t/o of spades you dbl round before.

I think your example hand is unlikely.
For one thing, I would have doubled 2 as takeout of spades first time.
Secondly, if I pass 2 and 2 cames back to me, they must have a better spot, given partner's failure to make a tko double of 2 p/c.

An action-style double makes more sense, hoping the hand is a misfit. Even so, some of these hands would bid 2NT first time.

Maybe these hands are too rare and delayed double as limited tko is more useful, as in ACBL simple defence.
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#5 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-September-03, 23:10

Yeah, that's right that you would double on many of those hands first time.
I wasn't sure if you wanto double with majors 2-5, 3-5. There are also hands with 4-4, 4-5 majors, like:

AQ9x KJ9x Kxx xx

I think this is a pass first time around ?
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-September-04, 04:23

This sounds like the ACBL-recommended defence as per
http://www.chrisryall.net/ryall.net/bridge...lti-2d.htm#acbl

I wonder whether mixing with Dixon to make double = take-out of hearts or a big hand and 2H = limited take-out of spades would not be more effective? Being able to get out in 2H would definitely seem to be an advantage. Of course you still cannot act with those balanced 13-15- hands and delaying action against a multi is often a problem. Your delayed double might be used to show such a hand but this seems to me to be inferior to getting it out there quickly.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-September-05, 04:13

Standard defense in Poland is:
dbl = t/o of spades
rest = natural

Then :

2 pass - 2 dbl = t/o to one major, guess which

2 pass - 2
2 dbl = penalty oriented (t/o of hearts which couldn't bid first round).

This is simple and effective. Most people in Poland play multi (and 99% of people play either multi or wilkosz ) so we have experience against it :)
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#8 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-September-05, 04:29

bluecalm, on Sep 5 2010, 02:13 AM, said:

Standard defense in Poland is:
dbl = t/o of spades
rest = natural

Then :

2 pass - 2 dbl = t/o to one major, guess which

2 pass - 2
2 dbl = penalty oriented (t/o of hearts which couldn't bid first round).

This is simple and effective. Most people in Poland play multi (and 99% of people play either multi or wilkosz ) so we have experience against it :)

My partner also suggested this type of double (takeout of their major, you figure out which one it is). I was reluctant at first, but it seems like it should work quite well. Have you ever had an accident with it?

It seems like it could also be combined with the common american meaning for double of 2d (typically 12-14 balanced) after 2d-x-2M.
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-September-05, 04:51

shevek, on Sep 3 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

We play:

(2)  X = tko of spades
      2 = tko of hearts.

We like to make our takeouts early, to avoid being preempted. Yes we lose a 2 overcall.

You don't really lose the 2 overcall - you just delay it by one round. Responder can't preempt when he doesn't have hearts, so you will normally get a chance to show your heart overcall next time.

This is a gain, not a loss, because you can bid
  2 pass 2 pass
  2 3/
to show a heart overcall with a second suit.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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