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Responses to Mexican 2D 18-19 balanced

#1 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2010-June-27, 22:42

Not the first thread about this - the most recent one I've found is here.

Lauria-Versace seem to have changed their responses slightly since then -

2H = 4+S or strong 1 suit in C-D-S;
2S = 5+H or NT hands;
2NT = trsf to 3C
3C = Puppet or 5+H-4S
3D = 5+S-4+H;
3H/3S = both minors and shortness
3N = 5+/5+ both majors;
4C = trsf 4H
4D = trsf 4S

2D-2H-2NT = 4 cards in S; 2D-3C-3D = 1 or 2 majors

If anyone knows any other continuations, I would like to hear them. In particular, I am interested in how they avoid wrong-siding 3NT on sequences starting 2:2, 2 - you can't really just bid like over 1N:2H, 2S.

Alternatively, it might be better to have 2D:2H, 2S *show* four spades, with 2NT denying, as both calls will right-side the most likely strain. Obviously this prevents responder transferring into his five-card spade suit at the two-level, but on the other hand you would be able to stop in 2 in a 4-4 fit, along with some 4-3s (and 5-3s) when responder chooses to respond 2 on a weak hand with three spades.
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#2 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-June-27, 22:56

If wrong siding is your concern find Danny Kleinman's book "The No Trump Zone"

He has an elaborate structure that basically tries to right side as many contracts as possible.

One little trick that we use is:

2 2
2 3 = choice of games thus right siding spades and no trumps

Actually we play 2 not 2 as the opening so we can do the same thing with hearts.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#3 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-June-27, 23:11

MickyB, on Jun 27 2010, 11:42 PM, said:

Not the first thread about this - the most recent one I've found is here.

Lauria-Versace seem to have changed their responses slightly since then -

2H = 4+S or strong 1 suit in C-D-S;
2S = 5+H or NT hands;
2NT = trsf to 3C
3C = Puppet or 5+H-4S
3D = 5+S-4+H;
3H/3S = both minors and shortness
3N = 5+/5+ both majors;
4C = trsf 4H
4D = trsf 4S

2D-2H-2NT = 4 cards in S; 2D-3C-3D = 1 or 2 majors

If anyone knows any other continuations, I would like to hear them. In particular, I am interested in how they avoid wrong-siding 3NT on sequences starting 2:2, 2 - you can't really just bid like over 1N:2H, 2S.

Alternatively, it might be better to have 2D:2H, 2S *show* four spades, with 2NT denying, as both calls will right-side the most likely strain. Obviously this prevents responder transferring into his five-card spade suit at the two-level, but on the other hand you would be able to stop in 2 in a 4-4 fit, along with some 4-3s (and 5-3s) when responder chooses to respond 2 on a weak hand with three spades.

hmmmm


I have played the mexican for a few years....it would seem you need a tfr to 2nt just for starters.....step one...


this bid comes up ohhhh 90% of the time or more.
---------



2d=2s(forces 2nt)

----

you can fool around I would guess with the rest but.....tfr to 2nt is 90% or more of the time. :)
---


fwiw I play:

2D=2H(SPADES)
2S(if you have 4 then you bid other)=3S=5+S FORCING....there are ways to show...6+ or two suits...
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2010-June-27, 23:17

And what do you use to transfer to 1NT or 1 of your 4 card suit, when responder is broke?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#5 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-June-27, 23:30

again 90+ of the time the bidding starts out:


2d=2s
2nt

---


or the opp overcall.

--------
can you have 18-19 across from zero...yes....


---btw2...no you cannot play in a 4-4 s fit at 2 level.....99.999% of tim-----in fact Not sure you can ever play in 4-4 spade fit at 2 or 3 level.


edit1=I guess you can come up with a hand that may play in 3 of a major with 4-4....but very very very rare. I would think you will simply pass 2nt.

---------


edit2=to repeat....I would bet 98% of all hands that do not start:
2d=2h(spades)...will start:.....2d=2s(force 2nt)=2nt.
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#6 User is offline   lmilne 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 00:19

Cascade, on Jun 27 2010, 11:56 PM, said:

One little trick that we use is:

2 2
2 3 = choice of games thus right siding spades and no trumps

Actually we play 2 not 2 as the opening so we can do the same thing with hearts.

Wayne,

What do you use 2-2-2-2NT and 2-2-2-2NT as?
Also, what are your 3-level jumps? We are using a variation of our 1NT system, not sure how optimal it is...
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 00:50

Slammish with six-card major and no shortage.

Our three level jumps all show a shortage with various other criteria.

Our whole structure is essentially a hybrid of our 1NT and 2NT structures.

2 3any is what we do over 1NT

2 2
2NT ... and our 2NT structure kicks in.

This gives us 2 and 2 as transfers.

Currently we have some redundancy as we have two ways to transfer (four if you include two ways for Texas transfers).
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 01:13

This scheme is intended to right-side everything, minimse information leakage about opener's hand, and not be too forgettable (though it hasn't always succeeded in that last objective).

There are two downsides that I'm aware of: it doesn't allow many invitational sequences, and the bids to show both minors wrongside 3NT.

There are a few bids that aren't used, but could be - eg 2 followed by 3. We decided that it was better to limit the number of meanings for each first-round action rather than try to cram everything in.

2 = 4+ spades, then after 2
  2NT doesn't exist
  3 = 4 spades, longer minor
  3 = 5 spades, 4+ clubs
  3 = 5 spades, 4+ diamonds
  3 = 3NT bid with 4 spades
2 = to play 2NT OR 4+ hearts, then after 2NT
  3 = 4 hearts, longer minor
  3 = 5 hearts, 4+ clubs OR signoff in 3
  3 doesn't exist
  3 = 5 hearts, 4+ diamonds
  3NT = 3NT bid with 4 hearts
2NT = forces 3, then
  Pass = signoff
  3 = balanced slam try
  3/ = minor one-suiter
  3NT = both minors, some specified shape
3 = both majors, 4-4 or longer (opener responds as to Stayman)
3/ = transfer - game-invitational, 5332 slam try, or 1-suited slam try
3 = signoff in 3NT OR both minors, slam try
3NT = both minors, some other specified shape

After 2-2M; completion-3, opener can bid 3M to agree the major, or 3 to ask for the minor. In reply to the ask, responder has two bids below 3NT that don't wongside anything. The lowe shows clubs, and the higher shows diamonds. That sounds more complicated than it is.

I've just typed this from memory; now I'm going to compare it with the notes. That might be a worrying experience.

Edit: a simple improvement (which I've only just thought of, for some reason), is to play 2-2-2NT as a balanced slam try, and 2NT-3-3 as a natural invitation.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-June-28, 03:40

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 01:59

As you see i guess many approaches.

I just repeat what I know.....if not 2d=2h(spades,5 not 4))


then 98% of the time.....2d=2s (forcing 2nt)=2nt)
-




other various in depth discussions.
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#10 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 03:42

gnasher, on Jun 28 2010, 08:13 AM, said:

I've just typed this from memory; now I'm going to compare it with the notes. That might be a worrying experience.

I had, in fact, got part of it wrong: the major-minor two-suiters are the other way around. That is:

2-2M
complete-3 = 5M-4m

2-2M
complete-3 = 4M-5C

2-2M
complete-3[OM] = 4M-5D
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#11 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 04:04

btw I think a very important discussion to have is what hands go into....1nt or 2d(nt style)



I play alot...I mean alot of hands are thrown in there. We put so many semi-bal. hands into this so that a one level bid would deny it.

I think this is an excellent discussion to have with your fav. pard. :)
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#12 User is offline   marcD 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 04:05

Just to add yet another scheme
2 transfer to spades (5+ spades or slam try in diamonds or spades). Upon completion, 2NT cancel transfer (opener bids 3 upon which 3 is diamond slam try and others Sp slam try) . Otherwise 3 shows 5SP+4C, 3 5S+4D, 3S choice of game
2 transfer to 2NT (5+ H or to play 2 or 3NT). Same as above . 3NT to play (does not say anything about H)
2NT tranfer to 3 (weak or slam try in clubs or hearts )
3 mini puppet stayman (3 1+ major, 3 no majors ). Over 3 3 ask opener to bid 3NT , 3NT shows 5H4S
3 5S+4H
3 54 minors H shortage
3 54 minors S shortage
3NT 55 majors
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#13 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 08:13

aguahombre, on Jun 28 2010, 05:17 AM, said:

And what do you use to transfer to 1NT or 1 of your 4 card suit, when responder is broke?

I think it is fairly standard to use double as a transfer here
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#14 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 08:16

Thanks for all the responses - I'll try to get hold of Kleinman's structure to compare.

Quote

I had, in fact, got part of it wrong: the major-minor two-suiters are the other way around.


I think I slightly prefer the way round that you "remembered" :rolleyes:
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#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-28, 08:30

MickyB, on Jun 28 2010, 03:16 PM, said:

I think I slightly prefer the way round that you "remembered"  :rolleyes:

We do it the way we do so that we can have this sequence:
  2D-2/
  complete-3C (5M-4m)
  3M-4M
so responder doesn't have to show his minor unless he wants to.

In fact, there's room to show the 5332s this way as well.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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