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What's your favorite system after weak twos ?

#1 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 16:12

Sensible style weak twos; always 6cards.
What's your favorite system after it ?
I saw :

a)singleton ask, new suits forcing
b)transfer responses inv+ (with 2 non forcing)
c)ogust

etc etc.

What do you prefer and why ? I am switching to playing weak twos with most partners and I need to choose one as I was playing multi my whole life.
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#2 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 16:57

bluecalm, on May 31 2010, 05:12 PM, said:

Sensible style weak twos; always 6cards.

So... which one is it? :P
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#3 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 17:08

I'm a big fan of feature. The more classical your style of weak 2s are the better it is.
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#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 17:11

I play "disciplined" weak twos - iow, whatever agreement I've made with my partner as to what a weak two shows, I stick to it.

For me, 5-11 HCP, mostly in the suit, usually 7-8 losers (rarely 6), no more than one A or K outside, no void, no more than one singleton, the suit headed by two of the top four honors. Not 4 cards in the other major. Some folks will think that's two restrictive, and they may have a point, but they don't have to deal with my partners. :P

I might, on rare occasions, open in first or second seat with a very good five card suit ("sorry partner, I had one of my clubs mixed in with the spades"). In third seat, much less restrictive. I might well open with 5, or with a side 4 card major, or with less than two of the top four honors. In fourth seat, about 10-13 HCP, six card suit, 7 losers, often 6.

Responses:

2NT: F, asking for Ogust rebids.
3: F, asking for a singleton.
3 new suit below opener's suit: natural, F, 5+ cards, denies a fit.
3M: preemptive.
3NT: to play
jumps in a new suit (including 4/2): Control Asking Bids (CAB)
game bids (except 4/2): to play
4NT: Simple BW (2NT, then 4NT is RKCB).
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 18:06

If we play 6 card weak twos I like transfers.

If we play sensible weak twos I like Ogust :P

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#6 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 18:06

I actually really don't care for feature. One of the worst auctions is 2x-2N-3y-3N. If y is a feature, they often manage to lead y and knock out dummy's side entry. Of course this is not a huge concern over 2M when your usual target is 4M, not 3N, but it can still be bad.

I'm happy with ogust or some variant over 2d. Over 2M, I like any of a number of structures that let opener show a singleton when non-min.

With one partner we tried a variant of ogust which was "rate your hand on a scale of 1-4". It kind of works.
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#7 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 20:20

Hi:

I joined the Dark Side so my weak 2s are very wide ranging. I am rather sane when Vul.

Third seat fasten your seat belts please.

Roth's "Picture Bidding" showed me how to bid 6-5 hands and 'rebid' after opening a weak two.

Follow up auctions are 2H-2S 'natural' partner may pass, however,

with any reasonable excuse he should bid. Higher bids are mostly transfer bids.

2NT=transfer to clubs might be weak, might be strong or even a lead directing bid.

3C=transfer to DS. 3D=inv. raise if Hs opened and transfer if Ss were opened.

2M-3raise is a 'blocking' bid.

Regards,
Robert
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#8 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2010-May-31, 21:09

New suit F1 (RONF)- may be 'operating' this auction. Strictly forbid going above 3 of weak2 suit.
Ogust shows too much - just a 'not much hope for game, partner' every else 'something' (I like short) here helps you decide.
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#9 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 05:53

dake50, on May 31 2010, 11:09 PM, said:

New suit F1 (RONF)- may be 'operating' this auction. Strictly forbid going above 3 of weak2 suit. ...

I believe the restriction of not being able to directly raise the new suit (e.g. 2-2;-3 would be above 3 of weak2 suit) would then require an alert of the new suit bid, and some would considered the bids to be outlawed controlled psyches - for example if playing in ACBL events see GCC, "DISALLOWED ... 3. Psychic controls (Includes ANY partnership agreement which, if used in conjunction with a psychic call, makes allowance for that psych.)"
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 06:43

It's been a long time since I've played weak two's. These days I play different 2-level structures...

I used to play something like this:
2NT = asks for a feature
3 = asks for shortage
3 = invitational with fit M (after 2M openings obviously)

I never missed the natural 3m bids, but we've found very nice slams because of this method. It also handles wide ranging 2 openings better, since after 2-3 you have 2 steps available for min and medium.
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#11 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 06:59

Choice of response structure depends enormously on how disciplined your opening are. If you're opening are wide ranging and don't have much in the way of suit quality requirements, you probably need something like OGUST to keep things straight. If your openings are reasonably disciplined, then a shortness ask or some such is probably more useful.

Here's what I prefer (you lose a natural 3 response, but such is life)

Over 2

2N = shortness ask (High shortage first)

and then...
3 = shortage
3 = shortage
3 = shortage

3 = modified OGUST

and then...
3 = Good hand (may or may not have good suit)
3 = Good suit, bad hand
3 = no interest in game

3 = Natural and forcing

3 = natural and forcing

After a 2 opening, things get moved down a step

2 is the shortage ask
2NT is modified OGUST
3 shows Spades
3 is natural and forcing
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#12 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 08:05

bluecalm, on May 31 2010, 05:12 PM, said:

Sensible style weak twos; always 6cards.
What's your favorite system after it ?
I saw :

a)singleton ask, new suits forcing
b)transfer responses inv+ (with 2 non forcing)
c)ogust

etc etc.

What do you prefer and why ? I am switching to playing weak twos with most partners and I need to choose one as I was playing multi my whole life.

RONF and a feature 2NT. K.I.S.S. systems probably best due to great variabiltiy of weak 2 calls.
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#13 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 09:08

glen,

3. Psychic controls (Includes ANY partnership agreement which, if used in conjunction with a psychic call, makes allowance for that psych.)"

Long ago, restricting weak2 bids below 3 of weak2 suit was accepted as partner captains any auction after a limited bid. No intent of psychic control!

That "operating" works in that scheme is no more PSYCHIC CONTROL than Drury after sub 1M in 3rd seat. see BBO-archives for that non-psych control. The question being does using Drury that acts as psych control bar a psych 1M opening?

Essentially if the system is used, then its effect after a psych is simple system application. No Psych Control violation.
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#14 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 20:25

2H

.....2S-forces 2N for p/c
.....2N-asks shortness, GF
.....3C-ogust
.....3D-GI spades

2S

.....2N-forces 3C for p/c
.....3C-asks shortness, GF
.....3D-ogust
.....3H-GI hearts
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#15 User is offline   MarkDean 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 20:44

I usually play what partner wants, then always just bid 4M or pass.

I do have trouble with ogust though. I often find myself with an average weak 2 and sort of arbitrarily decide if I should call it good hand bad suit or bad hand good suit.
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#16 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 20:48

I like asking for shortness as the cheapest bid AND Ogust as the first free step, i.e.

2 ?

2 = asking for shortness
2NT =
3 = Ogust
3 = Mixed invite
3 = Annoying

2 ?

2NT = asking for shortness
3 = Ogust
3 =
3 = Mixed invite
3 = Annoying
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#17 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 20:56

MarkDean, on Jun 1 2010, 06:44 PM, said:

I usually play what partner wants, then always just bid 4M or pass. 

I do have trouble with ogust though.  I often find myself with an average weak 2 and sort of arbitrarily decide if I should call it good hand bad suit or bad hand good suit.

I think if you're going to play ogust, you should have a strict definition of 2/3 top honors for good suit. A good percentage of the time responder is trying to decide whether 3n is the right game. Internal solidity is nice to have for your preempt, but it may not make much difference once you have found a fit.
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#18 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2010-June-01, 21:34

Jlall, on May 31 2010, 06:08 PM, said:

I'm a big fan of feature. The more classical your style of weak 2s are the better it is.

Great to see that a world class player who is about 30 years younger than me agrees with me on this.

I find it more useful to use 2NT feature opposite at least semi-classical weak 2's than Ogust.

In my experience I am still too often left guessing after Ogust.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..
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#19 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2010-June-02, 09:35

Gerben42, on Jun 1 2010, 09:48 PM, said:

I like asking for shortness as the cheapest bid AND Ogust as the first free step, i.e.

2 ?

2 = asking for shortness
2NT =
3 = Ogust
3 = Mixed invite
3 = Annoying

2 ?

2NT = asking for shortness
3 = Ogust
3 =
3 = Mixed invite
3 = Annoying

Gerben - is there some reason that over hearts you have 2N = 2M+2 = Other Major (Spades), while over spades, you have 3D = 2M+3 = OM (Hearts)? Seems like you would have more flexibility in your Ogust responses if you used 2N as Ogust over hearts (and 3=), since then you aren't forced to game unless partner shows the good/good response. Do you use the extra space over the 2-2N() response for something else?
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#20 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-June-02, 09:46

I like Ogust and new suits natural and forcing.

I've played a bunch of other methods; in some partnerships I use 3 as a shortness ask. In several partnerships 4 is keycard. A few times I've had an agreement that 2-level bids are NF. And I've played feature with some partners (usually very sound preempters).

My experience in all of this is that the methods designed to look for slams opposite the weak two bid almost never come up. I can't remember ever bidding the "shortness ask" or ever having a hand where the lack of a "shortness ask" in the partnership caused me any grief. I've bid 4 keycard once or twice, but never in a situation where bidding 4NT keycard wouldn't have gotten me the same result.

On the other hand, I feel that Ogust allows me to judge my game/partial and 3NT/4M decisions extremely accurately. These decisions come up close to once a session, which is a big deal relative to the other stuff that seems to never come up. The situations where I want to know a specific feature can usually be dealt with by either bidding Ogust and then starting a cuebidding auction, or by making a natural response in a minor and seeing if partner can find a 3NT call -- and again, I haven't seen many hands where this was a major issue.

I do understand that there are hypothetical situations where shortness ask is a huge win, or where feature enables you to bid a hand better than Ogust... I just haven't seen any of these at the table. On the other hand, Ogust helps a lot to narrow the huge point range and suit quality range for a modern weak two bid.
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