[jillybean]

---

2nd position, your bid

[cherdanno]

1♣ what else?

[jillybean]

OK just checking, my pickup BBO expert opened this 1♦, rebid 2♣ over my 1♠ and was aghast when I took preference for ♦'s. His logic for opening 1♦ - to avoid reversing 2♦/1♣
"you always start with 4card ♦'s"

[blackshoe]

That hand is strong enough to reverse over a one level response.

Your BBO "expert"... isn't. :-)

[karlson]

If you don't consider it strong enough for a reverse, you can bid 1♣...2♣ and it'll be much less of a distortion than 1♦...2♣.

[neilkaz]

jillybean, on May 28 2010, 07:34 PM, said:

OK just checking, my pickup BBO expert opened this 1♦, rebid 2♣ over my 1♠ and was aghast when I took preference for ♦'s. His logic for opening 1♦ - to avoid reversing 2♦/1♣
"you always start with 4card ♦'s"

LOL...make a note that this guy needs bidding lessons so then you won't forget and PD him again.

Automatic 1♣ opening and then I think it is just a bit too light to reverse 2♦ or jump rebid 3♣.

[the hog]

jillybean, on May 29 2010, 07:34 AM, said:

OK just checking, my pickup BBO expert opened this 1♦, rebid 2♣ over my 1♠ and was aghast when I took preference for ♦'s. His logic for opening 1♦ - to avoid reversing 2♦/1♣
"you always start with 4card ♦'s"

I understand the reasoning, and the hand certainly is NOT strong enough to reverse. However with a decent 6 card C suit he can open 1C and has an easy rebid of 2C.
Many players with a weaker hand and 5C would open 1D and rebid 2C, but this hand certainly does not qualify.

[peachy]

1C. Advice you got from an expert partner (is he REALLY an expert?) is very strange.

[jdonn]

Even the reverse would barely be an overbid with how nice this hand looks. But yes obviously never open 1♦ with 4-6 in the minors, if you aren't strong enough to reverse just bid 1♣ 2♣.

[pooltuna]

jillybean, on May 28 2010, 07:34 PM, said:

OK just checking, my pickup BBO expert opened this 1♦, rebid 2♣ over my 1♠ and was aghast when I took preference for ♦'s. His logic for opening 1♦ - to avoid reversing 2♦/1♣ 
"you always start with 4card ♦'s"

As a rather frequent user of bidding shorter ♦ over longer ♣ this is a "does not apply" situation (2 card length disparity). As a system fault you have to conceal the ♦ suit and just rebid 2♣ over partner's 1x, x =/= ♦. A much harder hand would be xx xx KQTx AKQxx since strength disparity is an issue as well in choosing ♦ over ♣.

[gwnn]

Yes I think with this hand it is

1♣ then 2♣=100
1♣ then 2♦=55
1♦ then 2♣=big fat 0.

[Free]

I know a few LOLs that play "5 card Majors 4 card ♦" and they will always open 1♦ if they have 4 of them regardless what the ♣ holding is. I've seen them do this with 4♦-7♣! Needless to say they haven't agreed on good continuations, and as a result they've played at high levels with very few trumps.

With my regular partner our 1♦ opening followed by 2♣ may be with longer ♣. BUT this is only to avoid a rebid problem! With 6♣ we open 1♣ since we have an easy 2♣ rebid. There's no reason to get fancy with this hand.

[kenrexford]

As a person who now only opens 1♣ with 4♦/5♣, but who used to open 1♦, I don't get the problem for Opener. Why not...

1♦-P-1M-P-
2♣-P-2♦-P-
3♣?

[bluecalm]

Quote

1♦-P-1M-P-
2♣-P-2♦-P-
3♣?

Because partner will (correctly I believe) think you are showing 5-5.

[mikeh]

bluecalm, on May 31 2010, 06:57 AM, said:

Quote

1♦-P-1M-P-
2♣-P-2♦-P-
3♣?

Because partner will (correctly I believe) think you are showing 5-5.

Precisely....and with extra values

Responder, with a decent 9 count, for example, with 2=3 in the minors, should give a false preference over 2♣ because doing so keeps the auction alive.

One of the many weaknesses in standard methods (hey, all methods have many weaknesses....I play standard based methods) is that opener can still be quite strong after a non-jump change of suit rebid. Thus opener may have a 5-5 hand just short of jumpshift values and passing 2♣ with a 4=4=2=3 9 count may well lead to a sub-optimal result.

Thus the false preference because, in part, it allows partner another chance.

One of the real risks of the 1♦ on 4=5 school is precisely because of this: statistically, opener will be minimum-range far more often than near jumpshift range, so we will often find our 4=2 fit.

Playing Ken's suggestion hardly helps: if opener has to rebid 3♣ to show 4=5 minimums, we get to play our 4=3 fit at the 3 level when responder has 4=4=3=2 weakness, while at the same time, we can't show either 5=5 or extras.

On the OP: only a complete idiot would open this hand 1♦.

To me this is a wtp 1♣ followed by either 2♣ or 3♣: the hand isn't worth a reverse, epecially with the minors and an unstopped, weak unbid major. I'd personally bid 3♣ at imps and 2♣ at mps.

[wank]

don't assume bbo experts are above intermediate level would be my tip.

[cherdanno]

To me it is:
1C-2C: 100
1C-2D: 80
1C-3C: 20
1D-2C: -1000

If it's strong enough to jump to 3♣, it's strong enough to reverse (especially with such a good side suit).

[mikeh]

cherdanno, on May 31 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

If it's strong enough to jump to 3♣, it's strong enough to reverse (especially with such a good side suit).

That's a question of style, I suspect. The style with which I am most familar is quite different: I jump rebid on good 6 card suits with good 15 counts, and my reverses are much stronger.

I don't think this is a trivial issue: a jump rebid is not the least bit forcing: it is constructive but can be and often is passed. A reverse, however, cannot be passed. Partner will force to game opposite a reverse on some hands that would/should pass a jump rebid...at least in the 'strong reverse' school to which I belong.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on May 31 2010, 07:13 PM, said:

cherdanno, on May 31 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

If it's strong enough to jump to 3♣, it's strong enough to reverse (especially with such a good side suit).

That's a question of style, I suspect. The style with which I am most familar is quite different: I jump rebid on good 6 card suits with good 15 counts, and my reverses are much stronger.

I don't think this is a trivial issue: a jump rebid is not the least bit forcing: it is constructive but can be and often is passed. A reverse, however, cannot be passed. Partner will force to game opposite a reverse on some hands that would/should pass a jump rebid...at least in the 'strong reverse' school to which I belong.

But a good 15 count with a good 6 card suit is approximately as valuable as a 17 count without a 6 card suit.

Also regarding a reverse being forcing, that is true but you can actually stop at a lower level than after a 3 level rebid since it might go 1♦ 1♠ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT P or something. Also the fact a reverse is forcing is because it has a higher maximum than a 3 level rebid, not a higher minimum.

I don't think this is a trivial issue either, but I contend your "school" is simply not standard. I think your 3 level rebids are just a hair light, your reverses are just a hair heavy, and thus you have created space in the middle where in standard bidding there is none.

[bab9]

Did you have time to discuss the system you were playing with your partner before this hand occurred?

Were you playing 2/1?

Was your partner playing canape openings?

On the hand in question, what did you have?