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Use of 1NT rebid to unbalanced 1D

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 00:51

Playing the following sort of structure:

1 11-21, balanced or clubs
1 11-21, 4+ Diamonds
1 11-21, 5+ Hearts
1 11-21, 5+ Spades
1NT 14-16
2 Strong
2 Multi
etc.

Let's say I decided to go the last mile and open even 3352 hands 1, so that 1 promises an unbalanced hand. This would kind of invalidate the natural meaning of 1-1/-1NT, so the question is, what could it be used for?

Alternatively, I could have 11-13 bal. hands in 1 and 17-19 bal hands in 1. The problem is, of course, that it might go 1-3 (inverted raise) on a 4-2 fit. Does anyone have experience with this sort of thing?
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 01:05

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond? I think a strong club system is better.

1D-1H, 1N-single-suited diamonds
1D-1H, 2D-good heart raise

1D-1S, 1N-spade shortness
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#3 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 01:39

Phil and I played this and liked it.

We used the 1NT rebid for extra strength hands (leaving the jump shifts as pure) and also tightening up the 2 and 2 rebids.

Then we played continuations were simple enough.

1 - 1M;
1NT - ?

2 ART GF, 8+hcp, then back to natural
2X (except reverse) 2-7hcp, NF (basically hands where you're trying to get out)

Although we didn't include 5332 in the 11-13 range in our opener, we did include 5332 17-19 balanced hands in there (rebid 1NT then 2NT). Also, if we had a very pure 5332 hand, such as xx xxx AKJTx KQx, then we would open 1 and rebid 2 instead. I.e. we allowed some judgment.
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#4 User is offline   blahonga 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 01:51

Play transfers!

1D - 1H

1S nat
1NT 4+ C
2C 6+D
2D 4+H, weak or strong
2H min, 3card support
3H 4+H, medium strength
other jumps are nat and strong with 3H

1D - 1S

1NT 4+C
2C 6+D or reverse strength with 4H
2D 4+D, 4+H minimum strength
2H 4+S, weak or strong
2S min, 3card support
3S 4+S, medium strength
other jumps nat and strong with 3S

Or let 1D - 1M - 3M be the medium strength 4-card raise and lose the minimum 3-card raise. There are also other ways how to play the jumps.
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#5 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 01:59

Transfers make sense ie

1D 1H

1N=clubs
2C=6+diamonds
2D=heart raise
2H=heart raise

You can use these to distinguish between 3 card raises and 4 card raises, or just good raises to 2H and bad raises to 2H.

Being able to transfer to clubs is obviously useful, you can bid 1N with 6-4 in the minors without fear of playing 2C when 2D is correct (because you can bid 2D over 2C). You can also bid 1N with a strong 1354 and then bid 2H without the usual fears of playing a stupid 2C contract.

Similarly you can solve the BWS death hand of 3-6 in the reds with extras by transferring to diamonds and then raising hearts belatedly.

For 1D 1S you could just do 1N=stiff spade and a 1N bid, which is basically the same thing as 1N showing 4 hearts (unless you wanted to include some 1354s with chunky hearts).

Altneratively you can do transfers again like:

1N=clubs
2C=6+diamonds
2D=4 hearts not enough to reverse
2H=reverse

This is good but you lose having 2 ways to raise which is awesome. If you want to make it sexier you can make it:

1N=clubs
2C=4+ hearts
2D=diamonds
2H=spade raise
2S=spade raise

You've lost the ability to transfer to diamonds and bid again, but since 2C is the bid that shows hearts you don't need 2 bids to show hearts since it's forcing and you can bid again with reverse values. And now you have 2 ways to raise again (can be to distinguish 3 and 4 card raises, or just good and bad raises, the latter being more useful if you open quite light).

Edit: Dammit the guy above beat me to it!
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#6 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 02:02

blahonga, on May 2 2010, 02:51 AM, said:

1D - 1S
2C 6+D or reverse strength with 4H

This seems like it would be awfully hard to untangle, and you lose the benefits of being able to transfer to diamonds and bid something anyways since presumably bidding again would show the reverse hand type.

Or maybe I just hate you for beating me to the punch by 8 minutes :P
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#7 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 02:33

Edit: I just noticed Justin suggested playing it differently over 1s than over 1h -- maybe that's the best compromise; we didn't really want two different systems. Anyway, I wrote the below without realizing that.

I play the transfers more or less as described in two regular partnerships. I've been very happy with the distinction of 3 and 4 card raises (we actually play that the 3-card raise is 2d and is NF(!) which I think is cool (BWDH bids 2n over 1M)), but overall I'm not convinced it's a huge gain. A big problem hand is 1453 over 1d-1s (you more or less have to rebid 1n showing clubs which isn't great), and you'd also kind of like a natural 1n with 1444 hands.

I know kenrexford plays the 1n rebid as 3-suited short in M, which seems a little inefficient to me, but maybe he'll chime in on how much he likes it.

Anyway, if it were up to me, I would play that the 1n rebid is natural, usually short in M, but leaves you the option of opening 3352 or xx42 hands with 1d instead of 1c. But if you're set on playing a real unbalanced diamond, I think the transfers work pretty well. A benefit which wasn't mentioned explicitly is that it solves the false preference problem -- responder with 2-3 in the minors doesn't have to bid 2d over 1n showing clubs since opener will have another shot with a good hand, so you get to the right minor partial more often.
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#8 User is offline   Bende 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 06:59

I play

1 - 1;
1 = 4+
1NT = 4+
2 = 6+, 11-14 without heart support or 18+ with either a) 6+ or b) 5-3
2 = 6+, 15-17
2 = 11-14, can be 3-card support
2 = 6+-4, reverse strength
2NT = 4, 15+; now 3 from responder is Jacoby and 3 is invite to 4
3 = 5-5, game force
3 = 6-3, 14-17
3 = 4, mediumish but can be minimum with nice honors

1 - 1;
1NT = 4+
2 = 6+, 11-17 or strong as before (also including 18+ with 4)
2 = 11-15, 5+-4
2 = 5+-4, 15-17-ish
2+ = as before
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 07:13

nice structures but is 1NT limited or is it the same range as a 2 rebid or even wider?
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#10 User is offline   ulven 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 09:53

Used to use transfers here. Now believe showing extra strength is the way to go, as Echognome and Phil. But with a different view on reverses/jumpshifts and continuations.
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#11 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 09:59

Unfortunately my partnership with Matt is the only one I play T-Walsh in, and we kind of came up with the 1N rebid on our own. Its kind of cool, and has a Gazzilli feel to it.

Transfers appear to be more popular.

If you like bidding systems, I think you can have a lot of fun with the 1N rebid - and might even be able to structure a relay.

Would be interested to see Ulven's system.
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#12 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 22:05

straube, on May 2 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond?  I think a strong club system is better.

You can play both if you only need one balanced range. For example,

1 15+
1 unbal and limited
1N (11)12-14

When I'm not playing two NT ranges, I play

1N diamonds
2C nat
2D 4+H (over 1)
2M-1 good raise
2M bad raise

But to be clear, I think straight transfers are better in a 2/1 context, to cater to the various stronger hands opener might have.
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#13 User is offline   JanM 

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Posted 2010-May-02, 23:57

We play transfers much as Blahonga & JLall, but with mild differences. We use 1-1-2 for the 3 card raise, and it's non-forcing. With a 4 card raise, we have lots of options - 2 with a relatively minimum opener, 2 then 2 or 3 with 64, 3 with a good hand, 1-1M-2NT as a splinter raise to either 3 or 4 (3 asks for range and splinter). With 3 card support and a good hand, we show shape.

I like 1-1-2 as 4 hearts, not enough to reverse, and 1-1-2 as a 3 card spade raise (forcing of course, unlike 1-1-2), and haven't had serious problems with 1-1-2 as including both hands with 6 diamonds and hands with a "real" heart reverse. After 1-1-2-2, 2 shows the reverse and other bids show good hands and are natural. True, if responder doesn't bid 2 we have to straighten things out, but if one of us has a reverse and the other has too much to want to "pass" opener's 2 rebid, we usually have room to deal with it by bidding hearts with the reverse and something else otherwise (I confess this hasn't actually come up, so we've just had theoretical discussions about it). If opener just had a minimum hand with 6 diamonds, they can rebid 3 over responder's non-2 bid.

We do open 1 with 3352; I don't know whether we'd be able to handle things if we didn't.

As for why not a strong club, it would involve a lot of changes to something we've been playing for a long time and would mean our instincts in competitive auctions wouldn't be as good as they are now. Might be worth it, but so far we haven't thought so.
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-May-03, 01:51

I've played 1-1M-1NT as a strong relay, 16+HCP. Partner responds as follows:
2 = 8+HCP, any distribution (makes the auction GF)
2+ = <8HCP, naturalish

It's easier for strong hands, but less accurate for part score deals than transfers for example.
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#15 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-May-03, 13:16

Rob F, on May 2 2010, 11:05 PM, said:

straube, on May 2 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

Why is it important to have an unbalanced diamond?   I think a strong club system is better.

You can play both if you only need one balanced range. For example,

1 15+
1 unbal and limited
1N (11)12-14

When I'm not playing two NT ranges, I play

1N diamonds
2C nat
2D 4+H (over 1)
2M-1 good raise
2M bad raise

But to be clear, I think straight transfers are better in a 2/1 context, to cater to the various stronger hands opener might have.

That comes at a high cost. Unless your 2C opening can show 5 clubs, your 1D has to include 1-4-3-5 and 4-1-3-5 so now it's only 3 cards. More importantly, you have to open 1C with your 15 (16) balanced hands and your opening 1N is a 3 1/2 point range. It may still be worth it, but I'm uncomfortable with it.
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#16 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-May-03, 14:32

This is an often-discussed topic. What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988. However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there. And, I like it. I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example. I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.
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#17 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2010-May-04, 01:06

kenrexford, on May 3 2010, 03:32 PM, said:

This is an often-discussed topic. What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988. However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there. And, I like it. I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example. I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.

If a 2 rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1 a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1-1?

Steven
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#18 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2010-May-04, 05:51

lowerline, on May 4 2010, 03:06 AM, said:

If a 2 rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1 a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1-1?

KRex was being tricky - he said that 1-1;-2 was 10+ minor cards, but I'm sure that 1-1;-2 is just 9+ cards, since the 1NT rebid over 1 now shows s - sadly a "unbalanced diamond" book was preempted by miles
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#19 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2010-May-04, 17:58

Jlall, on May 2 2010, 07:59 AM, said:

1N=clubs
2C=4+ hearts
2D=diamonds
2H=spade raise
2S=spade raise

[snip]

Edit: Dammit the guy above beat me to it!

Talking of being "beaten to it", where did you first hear of this? Wondering if I need to renounce my claim to have invented it :blink: This was in the context of 1D including both minors either way, so the 1NT bid was useful for overcoming the problem of not wanting to give false preference.
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#20 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-May-04, 18:05

lowerline, on May 4 2010, 02:06 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 3 2010, 03:32 PM, said:

This is an often-discussed topic.  What rebids when opening a truly unbalanced minor?

i have played a true unbalanced minor since about 1988.  However much i like gadgets in many situations, including the 2C respnse to 1D as and artificial GF with relays, i suppose that the "natural" rebid structure just seems so nice after the 1-level response that I don' reinvent the wheel there.  And, I like it.  I like knowing that 1D-P-1H-P-2C shows 10 cards in the minors, for example.  I like that 1D-P-1S-P-1NT shows four hearts.

If a 2 rebid shows 10 cards in the minors and a 1NT rebid after 1 a 4crd hearts, what do you rebid with 1-3-4-5 after 1-1?

Steven

I opened 1, so this was not a problem.

But, had I opened 1, or hand I held 1-3-5-4 shape, then I would rebid 2.

The difference between these two auctions is significant.

When partner responds 1, Opener can rebid 1 with four spades. Hence, if he does not rebid 1, he has at most three spades. With 3-3 in the majors, and unbalanced, he would have six diamonds and would rebid 2 (or 3). Hence, he assuredly has at most 3-1 or 1-3 in the majors when he cannot raise hearts or rebid 1. With a flat 3-1-5-4 (or 3-1-4-5 if you want), 1NT stands out (in my approach), such that a 2 rebid promises at least 10 cards in the minors (assuming that you also raise hearts with 1-3-5-4 or 1-3-4-5).

When the major is spades, I opt to rebid 1NT only when I have four hearts. That treatment means that you have to rebid 2 with hands that feature only 5-4 in the minors, but the advantage of promising a fourth heart seems to outweigh the benefit of promising 10 minor cards in that sequence.
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