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Moscito 2005 Question What to bid with 5440?

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-April-08, 18:21

I've been trying to play Moscito 2005 as set out in Paul's pamphlet, and I can't quite figure out what to bid with a 5440 hand with 15-17 HCP. If I open 1, and get a positive response of 1, it seems I am stuck and don't have a bid.

Incidentally, I find it really unfortunate that Paul did not complete this project and that it still seems to be impossible to say to a new partner "Moscito?" and be able to assume he will play the same system as you...
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#2 User is online   rbforster 

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Posted 2010-April-08, 20:59

mgoetze, on Apr 8 2010, 07:21 PM, said:

I find it really unfortunate that ... it still seems to be impossible to say to a new partner "Moscito?" and be able to assume he will play the same system as you...

Much in the same way saying "Precision" or "SAYC" or "TOSR" will still lead to plenty of disasters when you play slightly different versions of the "standard" system.
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#3 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 03:23

And if you say "Acol" you can't even be sure which suit your partner will open with a balanced hand.
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#4 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 04:54

gordontd, on Apr 9 2010, 10:23 AM, said:

And if you say "Acol" you can't even be sure which suit your partner will open with a balanced hand.

Or even that it will be a suit.
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#5 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 11:03

Are you thinking about reverse relays by opener? With 5440s, opener must relay out responder's hand.

BTW, dstraube and have several suggestions for improvements in the area of semi-positive responses to 1.

Please feel free to ping me on BBO (foobar) or on the forum...
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#6 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 12:00

I guess that's possible, but the problem is that 1-1-1 ostensibly promises 19+. Responder with extras might make an unwarranted move towards slam if you relay a bit and sign off...

I realise there are a lot of "improvements" for Moscito floating around. While I find the search for an optimum very interesting, I'm more interested in being able to play these methods with more-or-less-random partners... so I wish there were more of a standard. The 12-page Moscito 2005 PDF seems to be the best there is, unfortunately.
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#7 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 12:41

mgoetze, on Apr 9 2010, 01:00 PM, said:

I realise there are a lot of "improvements" for Moscito floating around. While I find the search for an optimum very interesting, I'm more interested in being able to play these methods with more-or-less-random partners... so I wish there were more of a standard. The 12-page Moscito 2005 PDF seems to be the best there is, unfortunately.

Well, you are five years too late my friend :). Thanks to the neglect and the lack of documentation from Martson (the book is how many years in the coming now?), that will remain a futile goal unless you get really lucky.

Back in the days, a few of us (free, hrothgar, ronlel, etc. all) tried to band a common standard together, but it fell by the way side.

BTW, relaying out responder's hand and then signing off shouldn't be that big of a problem as long you cap opener to say 12 QPs and require that responder have 8+ to carry on after the attempted sign off.

A more pertinent example of a frequent problem is the wrong siding NT contracts after 1 - 1 (SP bal or no 5 CM) since responder will often rebid 1N. Of course, this can be solved if opener bids 1N with min bal hands over 1.

All this can be worked around with agreements, but IMO, it pretty much rules up random partners...
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 14:39

akhare, on Apr 9 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

Back in the days, a few of us (free, hrothgar, ronlel, etc. all) tried to band a common standard together, but it fell by the way side.

Yeah, that's a shame actually. I just don't have the luxury to stay up until 2 a clock every night anymore. :lol:

As for the OP's question: since these hands are no part of the relay scheme (responder has to bid 2NT or higher immediately) there's no possibility to show 5440 after a 1-1 auction. There is however ALWAYS a call you can make: 1. Paul explains opener should show his hand when minimum, but nobody says you can't just bid 1 anyway. With 5440 you just have to relay.
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#9 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-09, 20:35

Free, on Apr 9 2010, 03:39 PM, said:

As for the OP's question: since these hands are no part of the relay scheme (responder has to bid 2NT or higher immediately) there's no possibility to show 5440 after a 1-1 auction.

One possible solution might be to fit in 5440 at 3S (right after 3H for 5431), pushing out the arguably rare 6430 to 4C.

The other (better?) alternative is to simply show 5440 as 5431. Given the rarity of the shape and the even rarer specific combination (1 AND reverse relay and 5440), I doubt that it will cause any significant disasters.
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#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 06:31

[quote name='akhare' date='Apr 10 2010, 03:35 AM'] [quote name='Free' date='Apr 9 2010, 03:39 PM']The other (better?) alternative is to simply show 5440 as 5431. Given the rarity of the shape and the even rarer specific combination (1[cl] AND reverse relay and 5440), I doubt that it will cause any significant disasters. [/quote]
When this came up the other day I treated my hand as 4441. Any reason you would prefer 5431 over 4441?
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#11 User is offline   slyq 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 06:53

dont want to stir anyone up to much but do other people think (than myself) think moscito is not that great a system
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#12 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 06:57

slyq, on Apr 10 2010, 03:53 PM, said:

dont want to stir anyone up to much but do other people think (than myself) think moscito is not that great a system

I think that it is very much a matter of what you are used to...

MOSCITO is based on very different design principles than Standard American or 2/1 GF. The goals of the system are fundamentally different.

If you agree with the design principles than you'll like the system.
If you prefer more traditional approaches, you're going to hate it.

I will readily admit that there are elements of the system that I consider suboptimal. (For example, I'd much rather be playing forcing pass). However, these elements are external constraints. There's not much that one can do about it...
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#13 User is offline   slyq 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 07:31

played forcing pass moscito an others of them all for me moscito has always been a fair way behind
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#14 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 07:36

slyq, on Apr 10 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

played forcing pass moscito an others of them all for me moscito has always been a fair way behind

Then don't play MOSCITO...
I certainly don't give a damn what you do.

If you want a real response you might want to consider what elements of the system you don't like rather than just posting random complaints.
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#15 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 07:54

What is the WBF policy regarding Moscito? Is it allowed in WBF events? Sorry if this a silly question!
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#16 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 08:01

mohitz, on Apr 10 2010, 04:54 PM, said:

What is the WBF policy regarding Moscito? Is it allowed in WBF events? Sorry if this a silly question!

MOSCITO is perfectly legit in most WBF events
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#17 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 08:23

mgoetze, on Apr 10 2010, 07:31 AM, said:

When this came up the other day I treated my hand as 4441. Any reason you would prefer 5431 over 4441?

That can work too -- expect that if the 5 card suit is a major, you are probably better off showing it as 5431...
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#18 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 08:57

akhare, on Apr 10 2010, 03:23 PM, said:

mgoetze, on Apr 10 2010, 07:31 AM, said:

When this came up the other day I treated my hand as 4441. Any reason you would prefer 5431 over 4441?

That can work too -- expect that if the 5 card suit is a major, you are probably better off showing it as 5431...

I'm not a big fan of this, but everything can work on given hands.

The above depends a lot on suit quality imo. If equal suits, treat as 4441. But if 1 suit is clearly weaker then you better treat it as a 5431.

Playing full relays however, I prefer to show exact shape "exact". :P I'd rather enter the 5440's after the 5431's, or just use the 1 relay.

It's a matter of preference and suit quality. I'm not going to enter an argument which is better, because
1. if you hold such a hand, your opps will intervene a lot in your short suit
2. I don't care to relay with minimum hands after 1-1
3. for every method described above there will be hands where one method works and another won't.
4. but most important: it's very rare... <_<
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 08:59

hrothgar, on Apr 10 2010, 03:01 PM, said:

mohitz, on Apr 10 2010, 04:54 PM, said:

What is the WBF policy regarding Moscito? Is it allowed in WBF events? Sorry if this a silly question!

MOSCITO is perfectly legit in most WBF events

More specific, it's a RED system. These are allowed almost everywhere.
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#20 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-April-10, 09:07

slyq, on Apr 10 2010, 01:53 PM, said:

dont want to stir anyone up to much but do other people think (than myself) think moscito is not that great a system

I find this comment irrelevant, completely off topic, and also pretty funny actually. The 1 response structure has nothing to do with MOSCITO. You can play any structure you want and it will still be MOSCITO. Not to mention the fact that 3-suited hands are a problem for many systems... <_<

Perhaps you can start a new topic with your arguments why MOSCITO is not that great a system?
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