Who's the donk? Poker!
#1
Posted 2010-January-25, 13:19
UTG raises to 4, all call (!!!) to you. You make it 6, both blinds fold, and all others call. 7 to the flop.
Flop 4-6-6
All check to you. You bet 2, 4 players including the original raiser call. 5 to the turn.
Turn 7
First two players check, then someone bets 4. Next player folds. You call, UTG calls, next player folds. 3 to the river.
River A
UTG checks, last round's better bets 4 again. You make it 8. UTG folds. He makes it 12!
1 - What do you think is the % chance he has 6-6 and you are beat?
2 - Hopefully we can agree it's obvious folding is unthinkable. Call or raise?
Comments about any of my earlier plays being donkification are fine.
#2
Posted 2010-January-25, 13:37
#4
Posted 2010-January-25, 13:44
Call me Desdinova...Eternal Light
C. It's the nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms.
IV: ace 333: pot should be game, idk
e: "Maybe God remembered how cute you were as a carrot."
#5
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:10
#6
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:11
I'm not a poker player but wouldn't 95% of all poker players just forget exactly who raised and who called, especially since there were 7 and 5 players at the first rounds?
George Carlin
#7
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:12
gwnn, on Jan 25 2010, 03:11 PM, said:
Worse than a full house.
Ok ok 8-6. Which only goes to show I should never give anyone credit for anything.
I still think a "good" player can't have any hand but 6-6 because I "have" to have A-A. But as usual I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about.
I also found out the UTG raiser had K-K. According to him but he was telling the truth and showing hands etc the whole game.
#8
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:14
#9
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:19
jdonn, on Jan 25 2010, 03:12 PM, said:
Just curious, did you have any reason to believe that this person was a "good" player?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
#10
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:27
Call me Desdinova...Eternal Light
C. It's the nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms.
IV: ace 333: pot should be game, idk
e: "Maybe God remembered how cute you were as a carrot."
#11
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:46
#12
Posted 2010-January-25, 14:54
jdonn, on Jan 25 2010, 08:46 PM, said:
If you read him as a sucker, you should 4 bets with all types of full houses which beats straights and would likely induce a call to your final raise. Anyway, since it's not pl/nl omaha, it's never a shame for top full house to 4 bets against suckers, since the chance for quads are too low and for limit games, people tend to call a final big bet in a huge pot.
#14
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:36
Ergo I would probably 4-bet A6 and 67 and the hands you mentioned and live with the consequences.
bed
#15
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:39
#16
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:45
Why so cruel, do you want me to wear a sign that says I'm bad at poker or is posting it on the forums good enough?
#17
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:48
For this reason in tough high stakes online games, you will pretty much never see a good player reraise his BB vs say an UTG raise. He will want to call pretty wide, and almost never reraise, so rather than turn his hand face up in the name of getting an extra BB in, he will widen his calling range and simply have no reraise range. This is obviously a better system even though in a vacuum you would rather get more money into the pot with AA/KK.
For a while there was a fad to basically never 3 bet even in HU from the BB, because standard practice is to bet every flop, so you get the same amount of money in by 3 betting and betting the flop compared to calling and check/raising the flop, and your call check/raise range is now wider and stronger. Of course people should adjust to this strategy by checking behind flops with hands like bottom pair etc.
Anyways, the fact that you reraised pre seems to imply that you do NOT think these people are thinking players who will later put you on AA. In live microstakes this is absolutely correct, you should play an exploitable/exploitive style where you reraise in this spot for value 100 %, and never have a bluff range. Of course your range should be super strong in this spot, but the point is they will never pick up on this.
So when you later just call this river bet because you don't think he would put in a mere THIRD bet on the river because you KNOW he KNOWS you have AA, you are being inconsistent. Your whole edge is that they cannot read your hand, and that they are basically playing the strength of their own hand (and poorly at that). Any donk is going to go nuts here with 77/A6/76 here and make it a million bets if they can, because their relative hand strength is so good. That is your edge. Your play was incredibly horrible, sorry.
#18
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:50
jdonn, on Jan 25 2010, 04:45 PM, said:
Why so cruel, do you want me to wear a sign that says I'm bad at poker or is posting it on the forums good enough?
umm a 4 bet cap makes your play infinitely worse than if there was a 5 bet cap. With a 5 bet cap if he is going to only 5 bet you with the nuts, and otherwise call your 4 bet (and you will obviously have to call the 5 bet), you need him to not have the nuts 2/3rds of the time (win 1 bet 2/3rds, lose 2 bets 1/3rd).
Without the ability to get 5 bet, you simply need him to not have the nuts here 50 %.
It is moot since he probably has 66 here <5 % of the time.
#19
Posted 2010-January-25, 15:57
2 combos of A6
6 combos of 76
3 combos of 77
6 combos of 64
1 combo of 66
17 boat combos
1 quad combo.
Not to mention that there are really random trip combos in his range also.
With a 4 bet cap you are betting that he plays 1/17th of his boat combos this way, and all of his quad combos this way, and no random trip combos this way, just to break even!
Think about how wrong you were, he actually had 86 and played this way, and as such you burned almost an entire bet in equity trying to make the most heroic play of all time. You have to be beyond damn sure of your read when youre doing something like this, and your only read was "obv he knows I have AA here"
I know it's an experience thing, but you are playing against the worst players ever, and they will cap a boat every single time no matter what has happened.
edit: oh and I forgot 44, add another 3 combos. You get my point. You need to think of combinations, not just of possible hands, because basically quads never happens compared to the boats, and it's easily to assign it a higher probability than it is if you are not thinking in terms of combinations. It's kind of like thinking of a specific 6-0 break as being as likely as a specific 3-3 break,
#20
Posted 2010-January-25, 16:00
So the points here for me are they probably aren't thinking, if they are they are probably thinking badly, and (of course) mathematically 6-6 is very unlikely in any case. Got it thx!