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BW deal

#1 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 19:39

Scoring: MP



I thought this was a tough one. My bidding felt very double dummy, hopefully you can do better single dummy.
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#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 20:46

Not sure if this is a bidding problem, play problem, or both.

BIDDING (my way -- really cool):

1-1
1-2!
2-2
2NT(not two top spades)-3(club control, trumps not hopeless)
3(two of the top three diamonds*)-3(two of the top three hearts)
3(one of the top three spades)-3NT(serious interest)
4(no club control, not all three top diamonds, one of the top three hearts)

At this point, Opener is known to have the Ace or King of spades, but not both. He is known to have the missing heart King, with at most two of them. He is known to have KQxxx(x) in diamonds. He is known to have no club control, meaning at least two clubs. So, he has:

Axxx-K-KQxxxx-xx
Axxx-K-KQxxx-xxx
Axxx-Kx-KQxxx-xx
Kxxx-K-KQxxxx-xx
Kxxx-K-KQxxx-xxx or
Kxxx-Kx-KQxxx-xx

The spade slam seems probably out, at best on a spade finesse. However, this is curious. The five-level seems safe. If diamonds can come in for no problem, and if Opener has the spade Ace, Responder can expect to win four hearts and 5-6 diamonds, for 9-10 tricks there, plus the spade Ace for 10-11, plus at least one club for 11-12. So, a diamond slam seems plausible.

If Opener has the sixth diamond, then he wins whatever lead, pulls trumps, eventually ditches his spade losers on the hearts, and claims 12 tricks. If Opener only has five diamonds, we might still get to 12 tricks if diamonds work out (3-3 split or partner has the Jack or partner has the 10 and life is good) by way of partner having the club J, or the club ace being to Opener's left, or a spade hook working, or the like.

So, can Responder explore 6 while signing off at 5 or even 5NT?

If opener had bid 5 earlier, that would be a clear Exclusion RKCB call. A delayed 5 still may be Exclusion. So, that's out.

However, I also like a gap fill when a call otherwise would be meaningless. 5 by Responder would on default rules be Exclusion at this point. However, Opener just denied a club control, so that makes no sense. The main exception to this default is when partner has denied a control in clubs, such that Exclusion makes no sense. The next default, Exclusion rejected, is RKCB for that suit, but this also makes no sense, for the same reason. Default #3 is that the 5 call acts as a surrogate RKCB for the highest-ranking RKCB bid in a side suit that makes sense.

Normally, that would be hearts. But, again, this makes no sense because we have between the two of us shown all three top hearts. Hence, we next go to RKCB for diamonds. That seems initially to make no sense, because Opener has shown two of the top three diamonds but has denied all three, but this could be seeking clarification as to whether the suit is AK or not.

So, Responder thinks through what would happen in the ideal world. If Responder bids 5, Opener's good response will be two with the Queen -- 5NT. all bad responses will be at or below 5, allowing for a signoff at 5. After the 5NT response, Responder could place the contract at 6.

So, is this worthwhile? Responder would end up in 6 in that scenario needing either a sixth diamond or the Jack or some luck.

Well, Opener did bid 2 way back when. If Opener has the worst possible hand (Axxx K(x) KQxxx xx(x), with no diamond Jack), he might still have the 10 and some luck. With no 10 even, maybe Opener might have rebid 2NT? Eh, cannot know for sure.

But, if Responder feels lucky, he can try and strikes gold (hopefully). Sometimes you have to bid the marginal slams if you have the damn tools to look for it. This auction won't come up again. Now's the chance.

*Opener will not have (1) one of the top three trumps, (2) three of the top four diamonds, (3) no club control, and (4) a stiff heart that is not the Ace or King. Were the heart the stiff Queen, Opener could jump at this point to 4.

PLAY:

Since I end up in 6, played by Opener...

Win the lead, pull trumps, knock out the club Ace, and claim my well-deserved slam. :)
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#3 User is offline   maggieb 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 20:47

For me the auction would start this way:

1D-1H
1S-2C
2D-2S
3C-3S
4D-4N (could bid 4H instead, but this doesn't really change anything)
5C-?

Responder knows opener has exactly 4153 (4063 with bad clubs would always rebid 3 instead of 3) at this point with 1 keycard. He must have both red kings for his bidding to make any sense, and he's bypassed the club cuebid. There is no hand with his keycard as the spade king which is consistent with cuebidding (KTxx K KQJT9 Jxx is a clear 4S bid over 3S to me). ATxx K KJT98 Jxx is also not a cuebid to me, so let's throw in the diamond queen for good measure, so we know his hand to be:

A?xx
K
KQ???
?xx

Anyway given this information I don't think we are good enough to do anything but sign off, so I would only get to 5. Long post for a boring conclusion.
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 20:54

ok here was my not convincing auction. Also alot shorter than Ken's :)




1nt=6nt


1nt=14-16 and offshape very often. Offshape often simply because my style has issues with 14-16 point hands so I would strain to open nt.

Ok, not that convincing. :)
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#5 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 22:07

Surprised Ken doesn't bid 1D-2C :)
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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 22:31

Jlall, on Nov 24 2009, 11:07 PM, said:

Surprised Ken doesn't bid 1D-2C :P

Damn! Actually, I would in many partnerships. 2 as no 5-card major and articifial.

Lets see...

1-2(artificial, GF)
2(spades)-2(agrees spades, GF)
2NT(same)-3(same)
3(same)-3(heart control)
3(same)-3NT(same)
4(no club control, not three top diamonds, heart control)

At this point, the heart control could be a stiff rather than the King. That's bad news. Could Opener have Axxx-x-KQJxx-Jxx? No -- he'd have bid 4 after 3 by Responder (one top spade, three of the top four top diamonds, stiff heart, no club control). Could Opener have Axxx-x-KQxxx-Jxx? Technically, but then he probably should have bid 4 after responder's 2. So, it looks like Opener still must have the heart King, but less reliably so.

So, the inference is still there that 6 works.

Can Responder still ask the question?

Well, now 5 would default under my rules to RKCB for hearts, because we don't both know that we have all three top hearts combined. 5 would still be Exclusion RKCB. Strangely, then, 5 would be RKCB for diamonds.

I think I dislike my defaults in this scenario. I think 5 (the "impossible" Exclusion and impossible RKCB) should actually be RKCB not for the highest option (hearts) as a surrogate but rather for the most likely of higher-option needs -- diamonds here (Opener has shown diamonds). Not sure.

But, 5 as RKCB for diamonds actually works. Opener either has the spade Ace or he does not. He must have the diamond Queen, because Responder is looking at the Ace. So, his answer will either be two with the Queen (6), which can be passed (no risk of 6 being misunderstood), or one (5 if 1430; 5NT if regular), which can be passed as well. So, all is well.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#7 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-November-24, 22:37

Fwiw I don't see myself perpetrating an auction that doesn't lead to keycard then 5S heh. I suck.
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#8 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2009-November-25, 01:39

Obviously anybody would bid the slam as Ken. Wtp? Easy and straightforward.

I guess, on a bad day I would fail to make 5 spade,while my teammates lose 12 tricks against good bidders in NT or diamonds. But I am sure that 5 Spade is the contract I would reach.
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#9 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-November-25, 07:19

Codo, on Nov 25 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

Obviously anybody would bid the slam as Ken. Wtp? Easy and straightforward.

That's what I'm saying! :rolleyes:
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-November-25, 11:05

Anyone's pet bidding method will work on some hands: in the 2/1 relay method I used to play, we'd start 1  2  2  2  2N, with opener showing 4153 or 4351, next relay clarifying shape, and, since I am 4153, I'd also show my controls...later scanning would reveal Axxx K KQJxx xxx. I think there would be room, if memory serves, to ask for the club Jack....we'd definitely be showing the diamond Jack and denying the spade jack, which would not surprise relayer of course.

Thus we'd outdo Ken...we'd reach 6N from South....and responder would almost be able to claim before the opening lead...from his perspective, only a 5-1 or worse diamond split would jeopardize the contract...if only we could scan for the 10!

In real life, as I currently live it, I think I'd end up in 5, and perhaps go down in that contract while 6N was cold. Such is life.
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