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Mr. Kokish and his relay maybe I'll try it

#1 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-October-09, 10:19

oops, that was really suppose to be relay, not realy [Fixed. Gerardo]

It was maybe twnety years ago when I was first asked to play Kokish relays (I declined) so I guess they have been around for a while. The request has been made by a new partner. I said I would get back to him.


2C-2D-2H(relay)-2S


Opener holds a balanced hand too large for 2C-2D-2NT or else he holds a heart suit. If ne rebids 3H, it is passable. So they tell me.


Side condition:
I have agreed that over 2C we respond with a count in controls, so 2C-2D shows no aces and at most one king. Good or bad, I have agreed to this so it is Kokish, not this control response, I am asking about.

Googling around, I saw a reference to Dannt Kleinman and breaking the relay. I didn't find much but I started thinking about what it appears he is saying. I will present it, but don't blame Kleinman if i am making a hash of it.




2C-2D-2H-2NT: Six or more spades, two or fewer hearts. If opener has the big balanced hand, this functions as a transfer to spades. If he does not have the big hand, then he is warned off of hearts and he is offered the opportunity to play some number of spades and he even gets to be the declarer.


And then (this is me, but ir seems implicit in the Kleinman idea)
2C-2D-2H-2S-3H-3S. This is forcing, shows five spades and presumably a dis-interest in hearts. Hearing about these spades might be just what is needed for opener to call 3NT.

Anyone have any experience with this? Are details written somewhere? Partly through experience, partly because of a generally skeptical personality, I resist playing conventions designed to handle problems that arise infrequently (the too heavy but balanced hand). But what the hell, I'm feeling frisky.

This post has been edited by Gerardo: 2009-October-10, 02:57

Ken
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#2 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2009-October-09, 11:46

I wouldn't like the idea of the 3 second-rebid being passable - it's the first time hearts have been bid properly.

I've played the relay-break the way you suggest, and although it didn't come up often I think it makes sense that way.

Have you discussed whether you are playing the 2NT rebid after Kokish as forcing and unlimited (and in that case what is 3NT?) or will you split your ranges to give more definition and have Stayman & transfers or Gladiator after the 3NT rebids?
Gordon Rainsford
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#3 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-October-09, 12:16

If 2C-2D-2H-2S-3NT has a meaning, I don't know it. It's something to bring up. The 2NT rebid is, as I understand his suggestion, gf. Whether it has strength limits, I dunno.

The passable 3H didn't thrill me either. It occurs to me that after 2C-2D-2H there could perhaps be room for something such as 3C meaning: I will be passing 3H if you rebid it.

All this seems like a lot of work for an infrequent situation, hence the hope for a detailed and decent treatment in the literature. I am hoping I could just say that I am willing to play it in that manner.
Ken
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#4 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-October-09, 14:11

I think you can just agree that
- responder will always rebid 2,
- all of opener's rebids are natural, with a non-2N rerebid implying a heart suit,
- and a 3 rerebid being GF
and it will work out ok. You probably have bigger worries anyway given you play control responses to 2 <_<
"Are you saying that LTC merits a more respectful dismissal?"
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#5 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-October-10, 04:08

I don't play control responses to 2C, which might change things round a bit, but in the partnership where I play 2H as hearts or balanced, our agreements are:


2C - 2D - 2H - 2S -
...2NT is whatever balanced range you've agreed
...3C/3D/3S are natural with hearts
...3H is natural and forcing, single-suiter
...3NT is natural and non-forcing, with hearts. A canonical hand might be Ax AKQxxxx Ax Kx

Responder doesn't bid 2S with a 6-card suit of his own to one of the A/K/Q. 2C - 2D - 2H -
....2NT shows clubs
....3C shows diamonds
....3D shows hearts
....3H shows spades
3S+ don't exist

Opener completes to agree the suit (usually on the big balanced hand), then responder's next simple suit bid is shortage. Opener's other bids imply hearts.

These breaks don't come up very often, but they are useful to eliminate possible hands, so that 2C - 2D - 2H - 2S - 3H - 4m agrees hearts.
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#6 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-October-10, 05:56

I like this, Frances. It's straightforward and it has the important feature that whne the auction goes 2C-2D-2H-3C, for example, the departure from the expected 2S is dramatic enough that opener will realize he is supposed to remember someting. This is important ina convention that is likely to arise once ecry six months or so (if you play a lot). Thanks, I think I will suggest this one. The 2C-2D-2h-2S-3N also sounds right, and if partner shakes his head and says "Now what the hell is that, I forget" there is a strong chance of landing on your feet anyway.
Ken
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#7 User is offline   3for3 

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Posted 2009-October-10, 17:09

A wrinkle I think makes sense is to play that the 3 rebid shows the heart one suiter. This would enable responder many different ways to 'raise' hearts.

With the weakest hand, bid 3 intending to pass 3
With the next weakest hand, bid 3 game forcing.
With a hand worthy of a slam try, bid 3, but do not pass 3, enabling cuebidding etc.
With the strongest hand, bid 3 Use this for slam force, looking for grand type of hands.

Danny

PS I haven't actually played this...
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#8 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2009-October-10, 17:17

Another wrinkle...

After 2C-2D-2H-2S:

- 2NT=Balanced game force
- 3C=Hearts and diamonds
- 3D=1-suited hearts
- 3H=Hearts and spades
- 3S=Hearts and clubs
- 3NT=Non-forcing (with long hearts)

In my experience this work well (because it allows for cheap suit agreement in most cases and because it is easy to remember).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-October-10, 17:32

A wrinkle that I quite like but have never actually used:

After 2-2;2, with a hand that would raise a natural 2 to 3, responder bids what he would have done in reply to a natural 2NT. For example:

2-2;2-3 = Stayman, promising 3 hearts
2-2;2-3 = 5+ hearts
2-2;2-3 = 5+ spades, 3 hearts
etc

This needs agreements about which continuations by opener show hearts and which show the balanced hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   3for3 

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Posted 2009-October-11, 19:08

Fred's wrinkle is better if one bids 2 frequently with 2 suiters. I believe that 3 showing 1 suiter is better if one avoids that...

Danny
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-October-11, 19:19

fred, on Oct 10 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Another wrinkle...

After 2C-2D-2H-2S:

- 2NT=Balanced game force
- 3C=Hearts and diamonds
- 3D=1-suited hearts
- 3H=Hearts and spades
- 3S=Hearts and clubs
- 3NT=Non-forcing (with long hearts)

In my experience this work well (because it allows for cheap suit agreement in most cases and because it is easy to remember).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I think a better agreement that is also a compromise between this and natural rebids is to simply play natural rebids but with the minors reversed, 3 shows diamonds and 3 shows clubs. I think it's very important responder is able to bid spades if needed over opener showing anything without spades, so I wouldn't want to use 3 for anything but both majors. You can still get cheap suit agreement over 3 by using one or both minors artificially.

It may even be easier to remember than what you said, although that is debatable. It's certainly better if you are going to forget what you play anyway since only 2 rebids are artificial instead of 4. :)
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#12 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2009-October-11, 21:45

Just curious, but what are you using 2C-2D, 3H (and higher) for? Setting trump and demand cue-bidding? Or could 2C-2D, 3H be sacrificed for 9-trick heart hands? or something else?

Anyway, I'm uncertain about Kokish because it seldom allows for branching after 2C-2D, 2H (responder has difficulty reacting to hearts initially).

I've used the 2H immediate negative response to 2C so that 2C-2D is GF.

Then 2C-2H,
.....2S-F1
.....3m-F1
.....3H-9 trick heart hand
.....3S-4S/5H
.....4m-5H/5m
.....4H-just hearts
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#13 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-October-12, 05:54

I played with this person for the first time last Thursday so there are many things (probably including many things of more frequent occurrence than Kokish) that are unsettled. The question about 2C-2D-3H is an very useful one. His idea was that 2C-2D-2h-2S-4H is passable, something that responders here have not been enthusiastic about. I might suggest to him that 2C-2D-3H show that hand. A hoped for 9 tricks, setting trump, passable. Opener knows just as much after the forced 2S as he does over 2D so why wait?

I think then the 2C-2D-2H would be gf whether you have the heart hand or the balanced hand. That would make the sorting out easier.

I sometimes play the negative 2H but I am uneasy when I do because I don't know the wrinkles. Just about any convention might lead to some undiscussed situation. Many play the negative 2H and I am not knocking it, I just get uneasy when the "what happens next" aspect hasn't been explored.
Ken
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#14 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2009-October-12, 09:27

The 2H negative clarifies things for me. For example, responder can show distribution after an immediate negative. The 2D positive and 2H negative improve the chance that opener can take captaincy of the hand.

2C-2D, 3C
.....3D waits
..........3M-second suit

and

2C-2D, 3M=diamonds and side major

so now 2C-2D, 2M and then rebid of same major sets that major as trump.
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2009-October-12, 18:45

kenberg, on Oct 9 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

2C-2D-2H(relay)-2S


Opener holds a balanced hand too large for 2C-2D-2NT or else he holds a heart suit.

I prefer the agreement that the balanced hand after the relay is 20- (poor)22. One of the advantages of this is that you can now play 2-2-2-2NT as Lebensohl, giving you the ability to play in 3 of a minor opposite balanced 20-22.
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#16 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2009-October-12, 21:08

Yes the relay being the weaker big balanced range is better because responder can bid a suit to play instead of completing the relay to show a yarborough that cannot make game opposite the weaker big balanced range. You could use 2NT to be either two suits to play in or to play in 3S.

for instance,
2C 2D 2H 2S 2NT = 22-23 (if responder bids something other than 2S to show a yarborough, you'll pass)
2C 2D 2NT = 24-25
2C 2D 2H 2S 3NT = 26-27 (if responder bids something other than 2S to shows a yarborough, you'll still bid 3NT)
2C 2D 3NT = 28+
I Transfers
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#17 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 09:40

View PostQuantumcat, on 2009-October-12, 21:08, said:

for instance,
2C 2D 2H 2S 2NT = 22-23
2C 2D 2NT = 24-25
2C 2D 2H 2S 3NT = 26-27
2C 2D 3NT = 28+


What about 2C-2D-2S-2NT-3NT? Another option to show a balanced hand. Does anybody incorporate 20-21 into their Kokish Relays? It seems like freeing up the 2NT opening to show the minors could be a big plus? Not sure about this though.

Also another question about Kokish Relays. I'm assuming that responder is expected to bid a 2 response to 2 most of the time. If so what do the other bids mean and is it recommended or designed to be compatible with the 2 negative response?
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 10:34

View Postbroze, on 2012-September-19, 09:40, said:

Does anybody incorporate 20-21 into their Kokish Relays?


Well, I mentioned three posts ago that I do. Sorry if I accidentally posted it in white text.

Quote

It seems like freeing up the 2NT opening to show the minors could be a big plus? Not sure about this though.


We use it to split the ranges, so that 2NT opener is (22)23-24.

Quote

Also another question about Kokish Relays. I'm assuming that responder is expected to bid a 2 response to 2 most of the time. If so what do the other bids mean and is it recommended or designed to be compatible with the 2 negative response?


I think that your responses other than 2 can be whatever you want them to be; one idea is to use major-suit negative (instead of positive) responses, and Leb to three of a minor after using the relay.
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#19 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 10:38

View Postbroze, on 2012-September-19, 09:40, said:

What about 2C-2D-2S-2NT-3NT?


minor-suits crusher?
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 10:54

Deleted, missed some posts.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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