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Baseball/Steroids/Hall of Fame

#1 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 10:58

"Cooperstown and the 'Roids

By Bill James

For the last ten years or so people have been asking me to comment on the issue of steroids and the Hall of Fame. To this point I have resisted addressing these questions, arguing—as I do with the Hall of Fame status of active players—that there is nothing to be gained by trying to guess where objects still in motion will eventually land.

With the passage of time the dust will settle, and we will see the issue more clearly.

After ten years, however, the dust does not seem to be settling very rapidly. There seem to be as many different and contradictory opinions on the issue now as there were five or eight years ago. We are all tired of arguing about it, but we still don’t agree. In any case, I am finally ready to say what I have to say about it. It is my opinion that, in time, the use of steroids or other Performance Enhancing Drugs will mean virtually nothing in the debate about who gets into the Hall of Fame and who does not.

The process of arriving at this conclusion began when I was studying aging patterns in the post-steroid era. One of the characteristics of the steroid era was that we had several dozen players who continued to improve beyond the normal aging time frame, so that many of them had their best seasons past the age of 32. This is historically not normal. In the post-steroid era we are returning to the historic norm in which players hit a wall sometime in their early thirties. But what does this mean?

It means that steroids keep you young. You may not like to hear it stated that way, because steroids are evil, wicked, mean and nasty and youth is a good thing, but. …that’s what it means. Steroids help the athlete resist the effects of aging.

Well, if steroids help keep you young, what’s wrong with that?

What’s wrong with that is that steroids may help keep players “young” at some risk to their health, and the use of steroids by athletes may lead non-athletes to risk their health as well. But the fact is that, with time, the use of drugs like steroids will not disappear from our culture. It will, in fact, grow, eventually becoming so common that it might almost be said to be ubiquitous. Everybody wants to stay young. As we move forward in time, more and more people are GOING to use more and more drugs in an effort to stay young. Many of these drugs are going to be steroids or the descendants of steroids.

If we look into the future, then, we can reliably foresee a time in which everybody is going to be using steroids or their pharmaceutical descendants. We will learn to control the health risks of these drugs, or we will develop alternatives to them. Once that happens, people will start living to age 200 or 300 or 1,000, and doctors will begin routinely prescribing drugs to help you live to be 200 or 300 or 1,000. If you look into the future 40 or 50 years, I think it is quite likely that every citizen will routinely take anti-aging pills every day.

How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They’re going to look back on them as pioneers. They’re going to look back at it and say “So what?”

The argument for discriminating against PED users rests upon the assumption of the moral superiority of non-drug users. But in a culture in which everyone routinely uses steroids, that argument cannot possibly prevail. You can like it or you can dislike it, but your grandchildren are going to be steroid users. Therefore, they are very likely to be people who do not regard the use of steroids as a moral failing. They are more likely to regard the banning of steroids as a bizarre artifice of the past.

Let us suppose that I am entirely wrong about all of that; let us suppose that our grandchildren do not wind up regularly ingesting chemicals to extend their youth. I would still argue that, in the long run, the use of steroids will eventually become a non-issue in who gets into the Hall of Fame.

My second argument is this:

1) Eventually, some players who have been associated with steroids are going to get into the Hall of Fame. This is no longer at issue. One cannot keep Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, A-Rod, Manny Ramirez, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and all of the others out of the Hall of Fame forever. Some of them have to get in. If nothing else, somebody will eventually get in and then acknowledge that he used steroids.

2) Once some players who have been associated with steroids are in the Hall of Fame, the argument against the others will become un-sustainable.

When the time comes at which two or three or four players are in the Hall of Fame who have acknowledged some steroid use, the barrier to other steroid users rests upon some sort of balancing test. Did this player use too many steroids to be considered legitimate? Is his career a creation of the steroids? Would he have been a Hall of Fame player without the steroids?

I am not suggesting that it is inappropriate for any one sportswriter or any one Hall of Fame voter to balance these considerations as best he can. But one does not build a house upon a well-balanced rock. The way that each sportswriters looks at these issues is going to be different from the way that each other looks at them. There can only be a consensus on one of two positions:

a) That steroid users should not be in the Hall of Fame, or

:) That steroid use is not an issue in the debate.

Between the two extreme positions, it becomes a fluid discussion. Once we move away from the one extreme, in my view, we will begin to drift inevitably toward the other.

I would liken this to attitudes about sexuality and television. At one point there was a firm consensus that there was no place for sex on TV. Married couples, on TV, slept in twin beds. The first departures from this firm position were small and insignificant. . ..PBS specials on prostitution, chewing gum and soft drink commercials that pushed the boundaries of “taste”, and edited-for-TV movies that were not quite as edited as they would have been a few years ago. Once there was no longer a firm consensus at an extreme position, there was a fluid standard that moved inevitably toward more and more openness about sexuality.

I will note that this happened without the consent and without the approval of most of the American public. It was never true that most people wanted to see more sex on TV. Probably it was generally true that most Americans disliked what they regarded as the erosion of standards of decency. But it was always true that some people wanted to see more sex on TV, and that was all that mattered, because that created a market for shows that pushed the envelope, and thus eroded the barriers. It was like a battle line that disintegrated once the firing started. The importance of holding the battle line, in old-style military conflict, was that once the line was breached, there was no longer an organized point of resistance. Once the consensus against any sexual references on TV was gone, there was no longer any consensus about what the standards should be—thus, a constant moving of the standards.

I think the same thing will happen here: Once there is no longer a firm consensus against steroid users in the Hall of Fame, there will be a fluid situation which moves inevitably in the direction of more and more inclusiveness. It is not necessary that people approve of this movement in principle. It is only necessary that there be advocates for those who are still on the outside looking in. . ..for Sammy Sosa, let’s say, and Manny Ramirez. And there is no question that there will be those advocates.

Third argument. History is forgiving. Statistics endure.

At the time that Dick Allen left the major leagues, virtually no one thought of him as a Hall of Fame player. In his first year of eligibility for the Hall of Fame, he received the support of a little less than 4% of the voters. In his fifteen years of eligibility for BBWAA selection, he never reached 20% in the voting.

Dick Allen did not have imaginary sins or imaginary failings as a player. He had very real offenses. But as time passes, the details of these incidents (and eventually the incidents themselves) are forgotten, and it becomes easier for Allen’s advocates to re-interpret them as situations in which Allen was the victim, rather than the aggressor or offender. The people who were there die off. A certain number of people want to play the role of Dick Allen’s advocate. No one—including me--wants to play the role of persistently denigrating Dick Allen; in fact, I’m pretty sure you can go to hell for that. People who were friends of Dick Allen speak up; the dozens or hundreds of ex-teammates who despised Dick Allen keep silent, or speak of him as well as they can manage.

For very good reasons, we do not nurture hatred. We let things pass. This leads history to be forgiving. Perhaps it is right, perhaps it is wrong, but that is the way it is. Sometime between 2020 and 2030, Dick Allen will be elected to the Hall of Fame.

The same thing has happened, more slowly, with the Black Sox. In 1950 no one thought Joe Jackson should be in the Hall of Fame. Now it is a common opinion—perhaps a majority opinion—that he should. People question whether he “really” did the things that he clearly admitted doing. His virtues are celebrated; his sins are minimized. Perhaps this is right; perhaps it is wrong. It is the way of history.

History will rally on the side of the steroid users in the same way that it has rallied on the side of Dick Allen, Joe Jackson, Orlando Cepeda, Hack Wilson and many others. But with the steroid users, we are not talking about a single isolated “offender”, but about a large group of them, representing the bulk of the dominant players of their generation. The forces that push for their acceptance will get organized much more quickly and will move with much greater force. This, in my view, will make the use of steroids a non-factor in Hall of Fame discussions within 30 to 40 years.



Fourth argument. Old players play a key role in the Hall of Fame debate. It seems unlikely to me that aging ballplayers will divide their ex-teammates neatly into classes of “steroid users” and “non-steroid users.”

One of the key reasons that Dick Allen will eventually be in the Hall of Fame is that one of his ex-teammates—Goose Gossage—feels strongly that he should be, and is outspoken on this issue. Goose Gossage is now a Hall of Famer. His voice carries weight.

Eventually, younger players who were teammates with Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, A-Rod and Roger Clemens are going to be in the Hall of Fame. Andy Pettitte is probably going to be in the Hall of Fame. When he is in the Hall of Fame—if he gets there before Roger—he is going to speak up for Roger Clemens. Hell, somebody might even speak up for Barry Bonds.

Once this happens, it will erode the prejudice against steroid users in the Hall of Fame, to the extent that that prejudice might otherwise exist. YOU might choose to divide the world of baseball players into steroid users and non-steroid users, but this is not a division that makes intuitive sense when you know the people involved. Therefore, this is not the division that will ultimately endure, once the long historical sorting-out process that makes Goose Gossage relevant and Lindy McDaniel irrelevant has run its course.



I have a fifth argument here, but before I get to that, let me speak for a moment on the other side of the issue. Let us adopt, for the face of the non-steroid user, Will Clark. Will Clark and Rafael Palmeiro were college teammates, and apparently were not the best of friends. As players they were rivals. Texas had Palmeiro (1989-1993) and then had Clark (1994-1998), while Palmeiro went to Baltimore. After the 1998 season the Orioles—then a strong franchise—signed Clark, while Palmeiro went back to the Rangers. Later on Palmeiro went back to the Orioles, so that both the Rangers and the Orioles had Palmeiro, then Clark, then Palmeiro. There was always a debate about which was the better player.

I’ve always been a great admirer of Will Clark, who I think was a great player and is a historically under-rated player in part because his numbers are dimmed by comparison to the steroid-inflated numbers that came just after him. Will Clark, in the pre-steroid era, was a much better player than Palmeiro, although Palmeiro was good. Palmeiro, as we entered the steroid era, gradually pulled ahead of Clark. I have no idea whether Will Clark ever used steroids or not, but let us use Will Clark as the face of the player who chose NOT to use steroids in order to stay in the game, the player who chose the natural route and suffered the consequences of that.

Is it fair to Will Clark to compare him to players who chose to cheat in order to move beyond that level? No, it is not. Absolutely, it is not. But the critical issue is, Is this cheating? If you choose to regard it as cheating, if you choose not to support the Hall of Fame candidacy of a steroid user because you regard it as cheating, I would not argue with you. I think that Will Clark has a perfect right to feel that he was cheated out of a fair chance to compete for honors in his time, and, if you choose to look at it from the standpoint of Will Clark, I don’t think that you are wrong to do so.

But at the same time, I do not believe that history will look at this issue from the standpoint of Will Clark. I don’t see how it can. What it seems to me that the Will Clark defenders have not come to terms with is the breadth and depth of the PED problem, which began in the 1960s and expanded without resistance for almost 40 years, eventually involving generations of players. It seems to me that the Will Clark defenders are still looking at the issue as one of “some” players gaining an advantage by using Performance Enhancing Drugs. But it wasn’t really an issue of some players gaining an advantage by the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs; it is an issue of many players using Performance Enhancing drugs in competition with one another. Nobody knows how many. It would be my estimate that it was somewhere between 40 and 80%.

The discrimination against PED users in Hall of Fame voting rests upon the perception that this was cheating. But is it cheating if one violates a rule that nobody is enforcing, and which one may legitimately see as being widely ignored by those within the competition?

It seems to me that, at some point, this becomes an impossible argument to sustain—that all of these players were “cheating”, in a climate in which most everybody was doing the same things, and in which there was either no rule against doing these things or zero enforcement of those rules. If one player is using a corked bat, like Babe Ruth, clearly, he’s cheating. But if 80% of the players are using corked bats and no one is enforcing any rules against it, are they all cheating? One better: if 80% of the players are using corked bats and it is unclear whether there is or is not there is any rules against it, is that cheating?

And. ..was there really a rule against the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs? At best, it is a debatable point. The Commissioner issued edicts banning the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs. People who were raised on the image of an all-powerful commissioner whose every word was law are thus inclined to believe that there was a rule against it.

But “rules”, in civilized society, have certain characteristics. They are agreed to by a process in which all of the interested parties participate. They are included in the rule book. There is a process for enforcing them. Someone is assigned to enforce the rule, and that authority is given the powers necessary to enforce the rule. There are specified and reasonable punishments for violation of the rules.

The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject. It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives. There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.

It seems to me that, with the passage of time, more people will come to understand that the commissioner’s periodic spasms of self-righteousness do not constitute baseball law. It seems to me that the argument that it is cheating must ultimately collapse under the weight of carrying this great contradiction—that 80% of the players are cheating against the other 20% by violating some “rule” to which they never consented, which was never included in the rule books, and which for which there was no enforcement procedure. History is simply NOT going to see it that way.

The end of the day here is about the year 2040, perhaps 2050. It will come upon us in a flash. And, at the end of the day, Mark McGwire is going to be in the Hall of Fame, and Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa, and Rafael Palmeiro, and probably even Barry Bonds. I am not especially advocating this; I simply think that is the way it is. I only hope that, when all of these players are enshrined, they will extend a hand up to a few players from the Will Clark division of the game."
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#2 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 13:03

wonderful article, and i'm in the 'it isn't cheating' boat
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#3 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 13:21

The analogy between steroid use in baseball and sex on TV had not been brought to my attention before.
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 14:07

A pile of crap, imo.

The argument that steroids work by keeping one young is nonsense. Take a look at those compilations of photos of Bonds over the years. When young, he was athletic.... tall, broad shouldered, narrow waist.. fast and strong. In his 'best' years of steroid use, he was huge..bulky, swollen head and neck... slow but immensely strong due to the effect of the drugs. The drugs did not make him young... they made him into a freak...albeit one who had a remarkable ability to hit a baseball. Not to mention that chronic steroid use does a LOT of very, very bad things to one's mind and body...things quite inconsistent with the concept of staying young.

The argument that steroid use was not 'cheating' is disingenuous. If the players involved didn't think it was cheating, why did so many of them lie about using?

If the argument was that there really wasn't a rule against it.... just an arbitrary edict... well, a lot of the cheaters have a LOT of money and could easily have fought the 'rule' in court. Why didn't they? Because virtually everyone knew and still knows that it was cheating.

The fact that many looked the other way is irrelevant.

I would be astounded if years from now steroid use is viewed as normal, or if these cheats are somehow later to be viewed as 'pioneers'. While I accept that at some time in future medical science may be able to extend life significantly, I very much doubt that Mr. James is correct in thinking that it would be by way of a steroid or any other simple drug. The problems that face anti-aging efforts are extremely complex.... and it would appear that whatever treatment is developed is going to be just as complex....if, indeed, even feasible.

As for the analogy between steroids and sex in the media, that was an interesting twist. However, I don't buy his premise that the opening up of the media, towards more and more sexually explicit material, came about despite disapproval from most Americans. Strangely enough, the one thing about commercial television is that it only makes money if people watch it. If most of the viewing public preferred shows with no or little sexual content, then the networks would have delivered that sort of bland entertainment.

I am not arguing that most survey might show that the public, on balance, deplores sex and violence in the media... I don't know if that is the case. But, if so, then this is merely another illustration that most people are hypocrites... many of us say one thing and do (or watch) another.

I am not saying that his underlying prediction is untrue... unfortunately.
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#5 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 14:21

There are a lot of good points here.

(1) What will happen if and when we have "performance enhancing" drugs with few or no negative side effects? Will they still be banned, and if so, what is the excuse for banning them? Assuming at this future time such drugs are allowed, how will we feel about the current era?

(2) For the vast majority of players, we just don't know whether they used drugs. What happens if we vote someone into the hall of fame and find out later he was doping? What about people like Bonds and Clemens who everyone thinks used drugs, but who have never failed a drug test or admitted to anything? What if they're innocent? What if they sue based on being discriminated against on what amounts to rumors?

(3) Doesn't it look a bit ridiculous if most of the game's record-holders are not in the hall of fame?
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 15:08

awm, on Jul 17 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

There are a lot of good points here.

(1) What will happen if and when we have "performance enhancing" drugs with few or no negative side effects? Will they still be banned, and if so, what is the excuse for banning them? Assuming at this future time such drugs are allowed, how will we feel about the current era?

(2) For the vast majority of players, we just don't know whether they used drugs. What happens if we vote someone into the hall of fame and find out later he was doping? What about people like Bonds and Clemens who everyone thinks used drugs, but who have never failed a drug test or admitted to anything? What if they're innocent? What if they sue based on being discriminated against on what amounts to rumors?

(3) Doesn't it look a bit ridiculous if most of the game's record-holders are not in the hall of fame?

Are you seriously proposing that Bonds didn't take steroids? There seems to be an abundance of evidence against him, including people who should know what they are talking about. The same is true of Clemens... there is evidence from credible sources describing seeing his use of injected substances.

Finally, there is Occam's Razor. While both Bonds and Clemens were exceptionally gifted athletes without p.e.d's, the major leagues of all sports are peopled with exceptionally gifted athletes... and history shows us that athletes generally reach their prime in their late 20's and exhibit noticeable decline by early to mid 30's. While some athletes prolong their careers beyond those years, historically it is because, while their skills are diminished, their residual, non-peak prowess is still enough to keep them in the game. It is NOT usually because, at an age when non-chemically enhanced players are contemplating retirement, they are setting personal performance records. It's not good enough to claim that they somehow looked after their bodies better than anyone else.. especially not for Bonds.

As for what happens to people voted in and then found to have been cheating... well, what happens in the olympics? The answer is: the cheaters are (properly) stripped of their medals... and the cheaters should be removed from the hall of fame. What else?

What is the purpose of the hall of fame? Are those elected supposed to reflect the best of their sport.. including sportsmanhip? Isn't election to the hall of fame supposed to reflect that the electee exhibited characteristics, as an athlete, that epitomized what society wants from its role models?

How is deliberately ingesting banned substances and then lying about it reflective of what professional sports aspires to be? Why should a sport hold out these cheats as people we should... and our kids should... emulate? What message does it send to the rest of society?
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#7 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 15:20

Keep in mind the Hall of Fame is full of characters that are known admitted cheaters or had bad character. I would vote to get rid of rule 5 but that is sort of another thread.


"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." (Taken from Rule 5, BBWAA Rules For Election To The Hall Of Fame)

Ty Cobb was a sociopath, a nasty drunk, a raving racist and maybe a murder if you believe Cobb's story.

Ruth went on drunken binges and a known womanizer.

Tris Speaker and Roger Hornsby were active members of the Ku Klux Klan.



Also note there are no studies that show steriods improve baseball performance.

As noted the steriod era seems to have started around 1960's not 1990.
The pill bottle era in baseball seems to have started after WWII when Dexamyl an upper came into commercial use in the 1930's and was given to American troops during WWII to increase stamina and enhance battlefield performance. Ball players would have know about it.

Mantle got "vitamin" shots from the famous Dr. Feelgood Max Jacobson, a home brew of fifty milligrams of amphetamine mixed with multivitamins, steriods, enzymes and solubized placenta, bone marrow and animal organ cells. BTW the Doc visited the Kennedy White House 30 times.

Even the great Hank Aaron confessed in his autobiography to using greenies to counter a slump.

But very interesting points posted, hope for more discussion.
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#8 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 15:46

Sure, Bonds probably used steroids. But he never failed a drug test and he was never convicted in a court of law. There are many other players who also probably used steroids (some of whom are in the hall of fame) -- Bonds is treated differently because he's a jerk, not because the evidence against him (although quite compelling) is stronger than it is for other players.

In fact the hall of fame includes pitchers who doctored the baseball -- this is known and was known even when they were voted in. And it includes people who used "greenies" and people who were drunks, cheated on their wives, and intentionally tried to injure other players in various ways. The standard for steroids is different only because of the phony outrage of sportswriters.

Sure there are people who extended their careers with drugs. But these days, having a good season in a player's late thirties is viewed as evidence they are on drugs, even without other evidence. It's a catch 22 when to make the hall of fame, you have to play effectively into your late thirties (longevity being a big factor) but anyone who plays effectively into their late thirties is automatically suspect of drugs, which preclude making the hall. Hank Aaron had some of his best home run hitting years in his late thirties... I suspect if he were playing today (and totally clean) we'd be lumping into the "probably used drugs" camp.
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 15:54

Totally agree with Adam. To me this is nothing more than a case of way too much outrage over not that big a deal. The majority of players from past, present and future generations did/do/will get any advantage they can if they think they won't be caught. Holding it against one generation that they found a more effective way and happened to live in an era when the media decided to care more is just dumb. Also, the hall of fame will have no relevence at all if it is lacking most of the best players of an era. If you think it should be mentioned in their exhibits then mention it, but that's already plenty far enough to go. Don't forget that, other than the induction ceremony, the hall is more for the fans than it is for the players.
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#10 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:00

Actually the Hall is very important to the players. Not just for their legacy and reputation but it will bring in hundreds of thousands if not more in speaking/appearance fees. That is alot of money to the older generation of ball players.

I think Rose would give his arm and leg to get into the Hall and back into baseball.
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#11 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:02

Another point is that the Olympic athletes who had their medals taken away violated explicit rules of their sport, which were in place when they did it and failed a drug test.

In contrast, the baseball players folks are complaining about are convicted only in the "court of public opinion" (i.e. most never failed a drug test) and in some cases the drugs they were using weren't even explicitly banned, or at least there was no explicit policy for detecting and punishing users. We are trying to retroactively change the rules about what's allowed, and then exclude people from the hall of fame based on hearsay and rumors.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:05

Ok... so let's put the bridge cheats into the bridge hall of fame. The race cars.... let's give them back the right to play internationally. The foot soldiers. Steve Sion. Hey, lots of players cheat... it's only the misguided bridge journalists who make a big deal out of it!

Most of those who have been identified as bridge cheats have not been convicted in a court of law, anymore than has Bonds or Clemens.

I don't understand the difference.
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#13 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:07

I do expect that drugs/chemicals/ implants for memory or endurance performance enhancements as players age will be an issue in the coming decades in bridge, good point.
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#14 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:13

Again, the difference is...

There is an established policy for dealing with suspected cheating in bridge. The people Mike mentioned were suspected of cheating during their playing careers, and they were "tried" according to the established policy and found guilty. Then they were punished.

The situation with Bonds and Clemens would be more akin to our going through hand records from the 50s and discovering that some player's bids appear suspicious, as if (back in those days before bid boxes) he was taking advantage of partner's voice inflection, then deciding based on this to refuse that player entry into the hall of fame. In other words, we have retroactively created the policy and applied it to someone without proper procedure. We would also be ignoring that fact that likely a lot of players from that period probably took advantage of partner's inflection in similar ways.

Or we could go back and strip some of the Poles' european wins, because they were playing Wilkosz 2 and now it's banned.

I don't hold with this sort of retroactive policy. If a player is convicted of steroids based on a failed drug test and banned from the game (like say Manny Ramirez fails a couple more tests) then he absolutely should be banned from the hall of fame too. Bonds never failed a drug test.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#15 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:14

Why is the Hall of Fame important to us as fans? Does our opinion of Jim Rice change now that 75% of the voters said he was worthy of induction?
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:14

awm, on Jul 17 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Another point is that the Olympic athletes who had their medals taken away violated explicit rules of their sport, which were in place when they did it and failed a drug test.

In contrast, the baseball players folks are complaining about are convicted only in the "court of public opinion" (i.e. most never failed a drug test) and in some cases the drugs they were using weren't even explicitly banned, or at least there was no explicit policy for detecting and punishing users. We are trying to retroactively change the rules about what's allowed, and then exclude people from the hall of fame based on hearsay and rumors.

I was going to make an unfair, sarcastic post, referring to integrity, sportsmanship and character... but reconsidered. I know that it is commonplace to spout idealistic language while ignoring it altogether. This is nothing new... it has always been the case in history. Politicians write Constitutions about ensuring the equality of all men, while owing slaves. Dictators speak about liberating their people while building jails and Swiss bank accounts. Sports organizations establish Halls of Fame described as shrines to integrity, sportsmanship and character while electing crooks, liars, racists and cheats.

But do we have to explictly endorse this? Can we not at least try to live up to the words we claim to live by? I suspect that those who post here in favour of allowing steroid users into the hall of fame would be appalled at having a partner or teammate suggest a scheme for cheating in the next major event they enter.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#17 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:19

mikeh, on Jul 17 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Ok... so let's put the bridge cheats into the bridge hall of fame. The race cars.... let's give them back the right to play internationally. The foot soldiers. Steve Sion. Hey, lots of players cheat... it's only the misguided bridge journalists who make a big deal out of it!

Most of those who have been identified as bridge cheats have not been convicted in a court of law, anymore than has Bonds or Clemens.

I don't understand the difference.

i admit i'm not much up on the effect of certain drugs, but i've heard that drugs used for add are being taken by college students (who don't need it, medically) to help with concentration... should a bridge player be criticized for this, if it helped him or her? how about 'doping' for bridge players? i suspect more stamina could come in handy for some events... of course it could be that this has been addressed in the bridge laws, i don't know

in any case, adam's post is correct - there were no rules against some of these things, why would anyone call it 'cheating' if no rule was broken?
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#18 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:22

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 05:14 PM, said:

Why is the Hall of Fame important to us as fans?  Does our opinion of Jim Rice change now that 75% of the voters said he was worthy of induction?

"America has few honors greater than enshrinement in the Hall of Fame of its National Game. The title HoF that the approximately sixty living members are entitled to add to their signatures confers upon them the closest American equivalent of knighthood. "If you don't feel an aura that 's almost spititual when you walk through the Hall of Fame, then check tomorrow's obituray. You're in it" pitcher Don Sutton said in 1998.....

And shrines as everyone knows, are full of mysteries and secrets."

Zev Chafets
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#19 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:24

So why not vote Ty Cobb out of the hall of fame?

He refused to play against blacks (and it wasn't just the league policy of the time, he made racist remarks on a number of occasions). He was known to sharpen his spikes before games in order to try and injure other players (surely frowned upon even then). And he was accused and widely suspected of betting on baseball, although he was found innocent by the commissioner.

The fact is that we can't go retroactively applying our rules and ethical standards to people from other time periods. Similarly, we shouldn't apply today's drug policies to players from previous times (why not kick Willie Mays out of the hall, I hear he used "greenies"). If a player got through his baseball career without being found guilty of cheating, I say let him in regardless of what we think about the way he played in hindsight years later.
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#20 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 16:28

I"f a player got through his baseball career without being found guilty of cheating, I say let him in regardless of what we think about the way he played in hindsight years later."

Adam for you now that Manny or any other player is caught cheating once, is that enough to keep him out of the Hall, forever?

If a player is caught using a spitter, cheating or caught with a corked bat, cheating, is that enough for you to vote no?
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