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Had a little misunderstanding today... How do you take it?

Poll: 4 Spades is... (37 member(s) have cast votes)

4 Spades is...

  1. Natural, to play. (20 votes [54.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.05%

  2. Cue-bid agreeing clubs. (15 votes [40.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.54%

  3. Something else. (2 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

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#21 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:12

gwnn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:45 AM, said:


I enjoyed this link for at least four reasons:

- I can't believe you remembered this existed.
- Vituperation.
- The revelation that Justin is clearly going to be the best bridge player in the world, assuming he ever sobers up.
- I was happy I gave exactly the same answer, that I think it should be a cuebid but would never make the bid. I wavered a bit more in that problem, but that's because it's a different auction in that the double in that thread shows hearts and spades (at least at first) but the double in this thread only shows spades.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#22 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:22

Josh, I can certainly see why you gave your answer.

It would NEVER occur to me that 4 was natural, as any hand that would bid 4 on this auction would have bid 3 the round before.

But it seems that the majority of the posters think it is natural.

If the 4 bidder had the hand that most are suggesting, he should take a preference between hearts and clubs. Bidding KQJxxx at the 4 level to play opposite a possible void is silly.
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#23 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:23

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.

So, for you 4 does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result?

It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades.

When I see these sorts of posts, I think of them as "my regular partner and I had a disagreement over this sequence, what should we agree going forward" rather than "I encountered this in a pickup game, what should I expect next time some random partner pulls this". I think the response here is mostly answering the latter and wanted to double-check on the former.
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#24 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:28

<cheapshot>

I can't believe you guys would have a misunderstanding on this auction. Not knowing your system ruins the game for everyone.

</cheapshot>
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
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#25 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:29

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.

So, for you 4 does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result?

It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades.

When I see these sorts of posts, I think of them as "my regular partner and I had a disagreement over this sequence, what should we agree going forward" rather than "I encountered this in a pickup game, what should I expect next time some random partner pulls this". I think the response here is mostly answering the latter and wanted to double-check on the former.

Now you are heading where I went in the linked post so long ago. Beware! You will get in trouble with that sort of thinking! LOL
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#26 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:32

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.

So, for you 4 does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result?

When playing with yourself you always know what your partner is holding -true enough. :D
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#27 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:51

WTF I gave different answers on both :D.

I have an excuse, I play double of 3x as GF to avoid this problems.
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#28 User is offline   Deevan 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 13:03

I would pass 4S "till death do us part"! The way I play with my partner, a direct 3S would be stronger than the bidding shown on this post. I agree with those who assume that partner was hoping to bid 3S(NF) over 3H; but, got stuck at the four level.

Hopefully, partner was prepared for a bid other than 3H! Adequate values and distribution!

This is an interesting post. Not as entertaining as the "vituperation" one; regardless, these posts add to the learning experience in bridge!

Those who might have played negative doubles for a long time, or "Sputnik" doubles, or Negative Free bids might relate to what I am saying about the "learning experience".

We have won or lost matches at high level competition with hands of this nature where one agreement might work better than another.

As far as I am concerned, the bottom line is to make sure that you discuss with your partner and pin down the gray areas in bidding; this post is a good example.
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#29 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 13:38

Simple counter question: what would 3S mean?

My take: 4S now is a cue fr clubs, because for me 3S the round
before would have been natural and forcing.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Just read, that 4S showes a hand, which wanted to convert
3H to 3S, to play therer, sry?
In other words p was risking to play 4S as he made the neg. X,
but was not willing to bid 3S the round before, beause he would
have to play there as well? No way.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#30 User is offline   wbaker 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 17:30

Hanoi5, on Jul 16 2009, 08:32 PM, said:

White vs Red, dealer passed, I opened this distributional hand:

xx
AQJTxx
---
QJ8xx

Pa 1 3 X
Pa 4 Pa 4
Pa ???

What's 4? What do I do now? What's going on?

To double then bid a new suit must show a strong hand. Also the bidding up to this point is giving you several clues. Dealer is doing nothing but passing and the other opponent prempted to 3s. So should have between 6-11 points at best. Your 10+preemptor's 6-11 if that many is only 16-21 points. With 19-24 points out there who has them more importantly would dealer pass if he has an opening or close to an opening hand.

Now we are ready to consider partner's hand. To double then bid a new suit at the 4 level shows an opening+ hand and long s. With that in mind I would now look at 5s as an exclusion keycard blackwood bid and that would enable us to place the contract in the correct spot either 5, 6, or 7, s depending on the response. :)
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#31 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 17:59

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

- The revelation that Justin is clearly going to be the best bridge player in the world, assuming he ever sobers up.

lol @ 20+ years...

lol wow inquiry busted out joe grue...touche... epic thread.

BTW I <3 YOU KEN I CAN'T BELIEVE WE USED TO FIGHT LIKE THIS!
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#32 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 18:08

At one point today, the poll was 10 to 1 in favor of natural, now it is 12 to 8.
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#33 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 18:58

gwnn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

Oh there was a long and emotional thread about this a year or two ago! let me try to find it... (it is necessary to link to it here cos there's hardly any chance of this getting so much an input)

this is the one:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=18005

it's not really the same auction but it is a little bit like it.

Clearly, we need FredG in on this debate.
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#34 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 19:35

Jlall, on Jul 17 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

- The revelation that Justin is clearly going to be the best bridge player in the world, assuming he ever sobers up.

lol @ 20+ years...

lol wow inquiry busted out joe grue...touche... epic thread.

BTW I <3 YOU KEN I CAN'T BELIEVE WE USED TO FIGHT LIKE THIS!

That's because you used to be an idiot. Now I have educated you up to just a moron. LOL :(
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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