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Had a little misunderstanding today... How do you take it?

Poll: 4 Spades is... (37 member(s) have cast votes)

4 Spades is...

  1. Natural, to play. (20 votes [54.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.05%

  2. Cue-bid agreeing clubs. (15 votes [40.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.54%

  3. Something else. (2 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

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#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 19:32

White vs Red, dealer passed, I opened this distributional hand:

xx
AQJTxx
---
QJ8xx

Pa 1 3 X
Pa 4 Pa 4
Pa ???

What's 4? What do I do now? What's going on?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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In all fields of endeavour emotion is the arch-enemy of judgement.

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#2 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 19:36

It's some sort of club raise. With a hand that is too weak to bid a forcing 3, but nonetheless wants to play 4, partner would have simply bid 4 instead of starting with a double.
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#3 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 20:16

Do not agree with TimG. Partner has spades. He also has 4 available as a good club raise which is also a cheaper call.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 20:49

If 3 is forcing, I cannot buy 4 as spades.

This is where you need to know partner and/or have meta-agreements. I personally would have expected:

4 = punt. Suggests 4 as a possibility, or even 4 on a Moysian.
4 = to play
4 = CLUBS (maybe RKCB)
4NT = Natural
5 = clubs
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#5 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 21:22

I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double?
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#6 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 01:15

Its a club raise without a diamond control.

Why bid 4 diamond as the only strong raise, when you have several ways of raising? So to me 4 diamond had shown a fit and a control. 4 Spade is a fit, a spade control, but no diamond control.

If partners hand is just about spades, he could have bid 3 spade or 4 spade.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 01:22

It's a one-suiter in spades where he planned to convert 3 to 3, non-forcing. He didn't want to bid 4; he's just ended up having to do so because we're at the four-level.
If future responses could be on topic, i.e. comparing the two suggested systems, rather than some alternative nutjob method, that'd be appreciated, thanks. - MickyB
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 03:56

partner should had bid spades if he only has that suit.

So we bid 5 next
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 04:19

karlson, on Jul 17 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double?

No, he will bid 3S
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#10 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 05:06

karlson, on Jul 16 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

I think it's spades. Is partner supposed to bid 4h with KQJxxx xx xx Kxx? Is he not supposed to double?

Spades -- to play.
I agree with Karlson... to some extent ( Hope this isn't a "kiss of death" for you ) and with gnasher.

Partner has a hand not strong enough for 3S-- say K Q T 9 x x, x x, x x, J x x ;
and made an appropriate Neg-DBL.

And since we are now at the 4-level, he feels chances for 10 tricks are as good, if not better, in Spades than in Clubs.
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#11 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 05:37

Spades. Surprised there is controversy about it.
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#12 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 08:25

THIS IS SPADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( :blink:


If he has clubs he has to bid 4, end of story!
Kevin Fay
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#13 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 09:22

Natural for me, a hand not strong enough to force with 3 previous round that wants to play in spades anyway.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#14 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 09:28

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.
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#15 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 10:34

gnasher, on Jul 17 2009, 02:22 AM, said:

It's a one-suiter in spades where he planned to convert 3 to 3, non-forcing. He didn't want to bid 4; he's just ended up having to do so because we're at the four-level.

This is what I was going to say.
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#16 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 10:45

Oh there was a long and emotional thread about this a year or two ago! let me try to find it... (it is necessary to link to it here cos there's hardly any chance of this getting so much an input)

this is the one:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=18005

it's not really the same auction but it is a little bit like it.
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#17 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 10:51

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.

So, for you 4 does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result?
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#18 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 10:58

TimG, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 17 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

I would never make this bid, because if I had the spade hand I would have stretched to bid spades, but if I hd any other hand I would be absolutely insane to make this bid since almost everyone will assume it is spades.

So, for you 4 does not exist? What would it mean if you were partnering yourself so you could be 100% confident that no misunderstanding would result?

It would be clubs playing with myself since I think that's the best treatment, my point was that I would never assume this for anyone else. Playing with a random person I would definitely assume it is spades.
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#19 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:01

gwnn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:45 AM, said:


That thread was worth it just for "vituperation".
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#20 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2009-July-17, 11:03

gwnn, on Jul 17 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

Oh there was a long and emotional thread about this a year or two ago! let me try to find it... (it is necessary to link to it here cos there's hardly any chance of this getting so much an input)

this is the one:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=18005

it's not really the same auction but it is a little bit like it.

Thanks. That was funny.

Anyway, sure they're similar but I think things are generally pretty different when we're talking about rather than .
Kevin Fay
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