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1S-2S-3NT when to pass?

#1 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 17:56

you play constructive raises and bidding goes (opps pass)
1S-2S-3NT
What are factors that favor a pass?
- MP's/IMPS's
- Max/min
- Aces/Jacks?
- Concentrated values?
- good/bad 'trumps'
...
example:
Scoring: MP

For your methods this is a (sub-)minimum 2S raise, but you started with 2S and bidding was:
1S-2S-3NT
Why do you pass or bid 4S?
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#2 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 18:03

It would seem to me that one argument in favor of 4S when you are not sure is that it likely is the field action. And, since you (and partner) play the hands better than the field you might as well play the same contract.
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 18:10

yep 4s for tim's reason among others.
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#4 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 18:44

An excess of high cards, especially at MP, tends to suggest passing. Here you have what you describe as a sub minimum for your methods - so no excess of high cards - also you have possible ruffing value in hearts - so correct back to 4.

Nick
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 18:58

I think if you are unsure then you should go back. Only when you are really sure it's right to pass should you pass. There are some but not many hands that aren't 3(334) with which I would pass on this auction.
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#6 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 19:20

NickRW, on Jul 14 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

An excess of high cards, especially at MP, tends to suggest passing.

I think this should be "especially at IMPS". For 4S to be a winner at imps it has to be 2 tricks better than NT. At MP it only has to be 1 trick better.
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#7 User is online   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 19:33

Slow tricks on partner's doubleton is the key, so having QJxx is good for 3NT.

If you have duplicated doubleton you are very much in trouble but that its impossible to find out.

You have also no way on knowing what partner has in your doubleton, but something like Qx also looks like NT might play better.

5332 is not a good shape for this, you will very harly have the time to stablish 2 5 card suits.
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#8 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 22:28

I would like to know first what 3NT shows.
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 22:35

peachy, on Jul 15 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

I would like to know first what 3NT shows.

So would I. For me, 3NT after a raise shows a solid 6/7 card suit, no singleton and some stoppers outside. This is impossible in view of the fact that you hold AJx for the raise.
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#10 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 22:57

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

peachy, on Jul 15 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

I would like to know first what 3NT shows.

So would I. For me, 3NT after a raise shows a solid 6/7 card suit, no singleton and some stoppers outside. This is impossible in view of the fact that you hold AJx for the raise.

good point, so I guess it is 18/19 5332.....still dont care.....removing to 4s to not look even more foolish than nature intended when he has qX of hearts.
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#11 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 02:06

aguahombre, on Jul 15 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

peachy, on Jul 15 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

I would like to know first what 3NT shows.

So would I. For me, 3NT after a raise shows a solid 6/7 card suit, no singleton and some stoppers outside. This is impossible in view of the fact that you hold AJx for the raise.

good point, so I guess it is 18/19 5332.....still dont care.....removing to 4s to not look even more foolish than nature intended when he has qX of hearts.

3NT is a suggestion to play.
Can be a balanced hand with 5-card S and 16 pts.
My partner told me that he will not bid 3NT with a lot of aces, but more with something like:
KQxxx=KTx=KQJ=Qx
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#12 User is online   gwnn 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 06:24

I think 3NT on that hand is a definite overbid.
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#13 User is online   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 07:27

If you play 3NT without aces you are almost sure to be down, not only because they have too many tricks, you have no inmediate tricks yourself.
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#14 User is offline   cherdanno 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 08:15

- Your partner's 3NT was a huge overbid. 3NT is typically a balanced 19 count (but not with a small doubleton!), or the hand-type The_Hog is suggesting. (In fact, The_Hog's agreement is probably superior, with a balanced 19 count you can still bid 2N and pass in case partner raises to 3N.)
- Never pass 3NT with a small doubleton. Probably neither with an Ax doubleton.
- Probably never pass 3NT with 5332 - at least I can't think of any hands where I would.
- With 4-3-3-3, you are most likely to pass. With that shape and an honor in every suit, I would always pass.
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#15 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 17:22

Thanks all for the replies.
..seems like 3NT should be passed very rarely.... Only with a 3334 hand.
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#16 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 18:41

quiddity, on Jul 15 2009, 01:20 AM, said:

NickRW, on Jul 14 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

An excess of high cards, especially at MP, tends to suggest passing.

I think this should be "especially at IMPS". For 4S to be a winner at imps it has to be 2 tricks better than NT. At MP it only has to be 1 trick better.

No - I disagree. With an excess of high cards, both contracts are likely to make - and since at IMPs safely scoring your game bonus is far more important than worrying about an odd IMP here or there, so the amount of high cards is (relatively) unimportant to the matter of deciding which contract is better. Instead, the short trump hand would be looking to see if there is possible ruffing value - which would favour the suit game and be a possible source of weakness in NT. Also what is the nature of the honours - a very quacky hand with intermediates tends to suggest NT - and so on.

At MP, with high cards significantly in excess of the minimum (upper 20s in total), the NT contract often scores the same number of tricks as the suit one does - which is 10 points more and worth grabbing if you can get it.

At both forms of scoring, when the contract is more marginal, safety becomes more important - you want to be in the one that makes the most often (no point in going down and getting a worse score than those who've stayed out of game for whatever reason). The safer game is generally the suit contract (other factors as above notwithstanding).

Nick
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#17 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-July-15, 19:11

NickRW, on Jul 15 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

Also what is the nature of the honours - a very quacky hand with intermediates tends to suggest NT - and so on.

I'm not sure this is the case.

Wouldn't you rather play 3N than 4 with AKQxxx Ax xx xxx opposite xxx xxx Axx Axxx? With AKQxxx Ax Qx Qxx opposite xxx xxx KJx KJxx, 4 is the preferred contract.

Obviously this is extreme, but with a quacky hand you generally have to lose the lead a few times in the process of establishing winners and if the opponents manage to attack your weakness, having trumps to control that suit is nice.
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#18 User is online   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 00:20

I'll say it again, the key for 3NT to be the winner is to have slow tricks (quacky hodlings) on your short suits.
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#19 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 00:39

kgr, on Jul 14 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

you play constructive raises and bidding goes (opps pass)
1S-2S-3NT
What are factors that favor a pass?
- MP's/IMPS's
- Max/min
- Aces/Jacks?
- Concentrated values?
- good/bad 'trumps'
...
example:
Scoring: MP

For your methods this is a (sub-)minimum 2S raise, but you started with 2S and bidding was:
1S-2S-3NT
Why do you pass or bid 4S?

4s i got a ruffing value and my hcp are in spades.
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#20 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-July-16, 01:57

As the earlier discussion suggests, there are two distinct categories of deal where you might prefer 3NT to 4S:
- Quacky hands, where the queens and jacks take care of the third and fourth rounds of a suit, so that there's no need for ruffs.
- Deals where you have nine fast winners and four slow losers. (Arguably this is two types: the hands where your trump suit provides the winners, and those where the trump suit is very weak but you have another source of tricks.)

Before you can decide what you need to pass 3NT, you need to know which of these hand-types partner has. Unless you have two ways to offer a choice of games, the best thing to do is to use 3NT to show one of these and give up on the other. With two balanced hands, I think that the quacky type is more common and easier to identify than the fast-winners type, so I would opt for being able to show that and not the fast-winners type.

One thing that I'm sure you can't do is to play opener's 3NT as either hand-type.
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JAllerton: I continue by inspecting the vulnerability and form of scoring. Then I remind myself of what methods I am playing.
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