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Board-a-Match

#21 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2009-April-17, 16:26

Stephen Tu, on Apr 17 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

Never heard of Patton before today.  It is a bizarre Imp->VP + BAM hybrid?  What's the exact ratio used?  How does it affect strategy?

I played in a couple of Patton events in French tournaments that I would say roughly corresponded to an average ACBL Regional (in terms of size and strength of field and in terms of duration). The French (smartly in my view) run a relatively small number of events in these tournaments compared to the number of events in a typical ACBL Regional. At both of the tournaments I was at, the Pattons were among the premier events. As far as I could tell, most of the players really looked forward to playing in the Patton (perhaps partly because most/all of the other main events were pairs events). There was quite a bit of prize money available in all of events I played in and prizes were awarded rather deeply into the overall rankings.

If I recall correctly, the Pattons I played in featured a movement that is similar to that which is used in ACBL BAM events (but teams compared after each round). I don't think it was run like a Swiss, but I could be wrong about that. Each match consisted of 4 boards. 10 points were available in each match. 6 of these points came by converting IMPs to a mini-VP scale. The other 4 points came from BAM.

It is entirely possible my memory of how the scoring worked in these events is not completely accurate. It is also entirely possible that there are various other ways that Patton events are run and scored.

I do not really have enough experience playing Patton to speak with a great degree of confidence regarding strategy. I can tell you that I found the strategy to be very interesting and stimulating (though rather impure - I don't think it would be a good format for a "very serious event"). On a lot of boards it felt like the right strategy was to start in IMP-mode, but switch to BAM-mode part way through (typically after it became clear that the number of IMPs at stake from that point forward would be small). The shortness of the matches also created some unusual strategic considerations in matches where you had a clearly wonderful or clearly terrible result in the first 3 boards.

Probably some of the strong European players who post on Forums have gained additional insights into the strategy of Patton and hopefully some will post their thoughts here.

Overall it was a rather enjoyable experience, but I am not sure how much of that had to do with the fact that Zia was my partner, that the tournaments themselves were very well-organized and held in beautiful locations, or because of the novelty effect of trying a new form of scoring.

Sorry I am unsure about so much of the above.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

#22 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2009-April-17, 16:35

Quote

I don't understand the objections to treating a 10-point difference as a tie


Maybe we just feel it's really weird. Like if someone decided to run a MP pairs game, except 10 point difference gives you tie with the other table.

I think NT ought to be rewarded, also. Would anybody mind an IMP scale alteration giving 0.5 imp for a 10 point difference?
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#23 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2009-April-17, 16:59

gnasher, on Apr 17 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

I don't understand the objections to treating a 10-point difference as a tie.  Obviously it means that you're playing a different game, but why is it inferior?

Part of the appeal of BAM is that it is a very difficult and very pure form of the game.

Treating a 10-point difference as a tie makes the game easier and less pure.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
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#24 User is offline   crazy4hoop 

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Posted 2009-April-17, 19:53

I agree with what I believe are Justin's, Josh's, and Fred's main points - that the beauty of a BAM-scored event is that every trick is so crucially important - one cannot afford the slightest mental lapse at any time, which also makes it a grueling event which is advantageous to those with great bridge stamina and mental toughness (which I think is a good thing). I think it was Justin who said that if you wanted to play in an event where the 10 points didn't matter, go play IMPs. I remember playing at a regional in New York City several years ago where in a rather competitive auctioin, my opponent playing in 5 of a Major, played it carefully to try to make 7 for 510, which he did, in case his teammates took the save and went for one too many and were minus 500, which they were. Even though it was at my expense, I thought it was cool and have found BAM totally fascinating ever since.
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#25 User is offline   Patapon 

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Posted 2009-April-17, 20:05

In France we play Patton in most of the summer "beach tournament".Biarritz, La Baule, Deauville, Cannes...

We call a Patton a team tourney whatever the movement is.It may run like a swiss or not.We play 3 or 4 sessions of 28 boards.( 1 each day).

We usually play 4 boards per round( sometimes 6).

When we play 4 boards match, then 16 points are available in each match.
-8 for the BAM points- 2 on each board as you win 2-0 or tie 1-1
-8 of these points came by converting IMPs to VP scale(8-0,7-1,6-2,5-3 or 4-4)

When we play 6 boards then 24 points are available in each match.

There are always money prizes available in all the events.There are also many gift prizes.
You also win some expert points( French masterpoints) but almost nothing compared to the points you win in official FFB events.
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#26 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 02:39

jdonn, on Apr 17 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

I think to summarize what Justin said, the point is that it's unnatural (in that someone decided some scoring difference should simply not matter) and arbitrary (in that someone decided 10 points doesn't matter but 20 points does).

True, but that's also true of the IMP scale, which we all seem quite happy with (well actually I'm not, but that's for another thread).
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#27 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 03:10

There are two major events in England that use hybrid scoring:

The Lederer (an invitation teams event) uses scoring like that described by Patapon, but with 12-board matches in a round robin movement. The BAM element makes up 2/5 of the available VPs. 10-point swings don't affect the BAM element. I think you should bid like at IMPs but play like at matchpoints.

The Pachabo is an inter-county event, with three-board matches again in a round robin. The scoring system is arcane. You get 6 points (2 per board) for the BAM element (again, a 10-point difference is a tie), and up to four more from the following method:

EBU said:

Firstly, the total aggregate points scored (regardless of whether plus or minus) at the two tables put together are calculated. Secondly, the total aggregate swing in the match is calculated. Finally, the total aggregate points are divided by the swing, and the result converted to Victory Points as per the schedule described below. Two examples of this process are described within.

If total points divided by swing are:
  greater than or equal to 12:  2  -  2    VP s
  less than 12, but greater than or equal to 8:  2½  -  1½    VP s
  less than 8, but greater than or equal to 5:  3  -  1    VP s
  less than 5, but greater than or equal to 3:  3½  -  ½    VP s
  less than 3:    4  -  0    VP s  12:  2  -  2    VP s

Thus the right strategy on a particular board depends upon what happens on the other boards in the same match.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#28 User is offline   se12sam 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 03:21

Patapon, on Apr 18 2009, 03:05 AM, said:

When we play 4 boards match, then 16 points are available in each match.
-8 for the BAM points- 2 on each board as you win 2-0 or tie 1-1
-8  of these points came by converting IMPs to VP scale(8-0,7-1,6-2,5-3 or 4-4)

In England, the Lederer Memorial trophy is played in a similar way.

Twelve boards per round, with 60 points available in each match.
- 36 points come off IMPs being converted to VP scale
- 24 points on a "BAM style" -- 2 for a win, 1 for a tie and zero for a loss.
However, at Lederer, a 10 point difference counts as a tie.
In essence, the "BAM style" is 2 for winning IMPs on a board, 1 for a push board and zero for losing IMPs on a board
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#29 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 06:57

In the Norwegian version of Patton we play 7-board matches.
14 points in the match are divided by BAM scoring (2-0/1-1) and 6 points are divided by a method similar to the EBU regulation quoted by gnasher above (6-0/5-1/4-2/3-3).
Kind regards,
Harald
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#30 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 13:35

Gerben42, on Apr 17 2009, 05:11 PM, said:

Alain will you be in Pula this year? I will!

I still don't know but maybe !

Of course I will be very happy to meet you if I go ! :rolleyes: :)
Alain
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#31 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-April-18, 14:00

gnasher, on Apr 18 2009, 03:39 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 17 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

I think to summarize what Justin said, the point is that it's unnatural (in that someone decided some scoring difference should simply not matter) and arbitrary (in that someone decided 10 points doesn't matter but 20 points does).

True, but that's also true of the IMP scale, which we all seem quite happy with (well actually I'm not, but that's for another thread).

We do? I'm simply not inclined to change but I think it could definitely be improved.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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