[Hanoi5]

What topics should old players learn? Usually people learning bridge take lessons to learn new gadgets which doesn't help them at all. Which subjects do you think intermediate players should be learning or studying? What's really important?

[Free]

Staying home...

[rogerclee]

Free, on Mar 14 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

Staying home...

Who do you think you are? One would think that after your recent string of terrible/wrong posts, you would at least have it in your heart to allow others to make mistakes at bridge too.

Anyway I think the biggest thing to do is to emphasize counting during the play of the hand and using this to visualize what the other players hold. In terms of bidding, I have found that the biggest problem among B/I players is that they don't bid game enough when it is indicated, such as a good trump fit or side fit, no waste in the opponents' suit, etc.

[hanp]

I think the original post is also very strange. Not every old player is a LOL and not every LOL is old.

[helene_t]

Tall Old Ladies like me might benefit from learning to spend more time in the bridge forums and less in the water cooler.

[matmat]

the LOL's already know too much. they just smile and take my lunch money...

[Elianna]

Planning play of the hand. This could a progressive series of lessons:

1) general planning

2) counting

3) changing strategies mid-stream

And could include lots of things like common card combos, cashing side winners before cross-ruffing, what could opps have based on bidding/play, etc. Not things like esoteric squeeze positions.

I also recommend sticking to two general points per lesson, with various examples to back up this point, and then have them play hands that reiterate both your new points, and points from previous lessons.

I agree with the previous statements about taking exception to the use of the phrase LOL, but I guess you're trying to distinguish from teaching juniors? Then I really recommend keeping it to a few points per lesson, and pre-arranged hands (15-20, preferably with the bidding already given) to reinforce the idea of how to apply the new lesson.

[peachy]

Old players? Do you mean old people who are just now taking up bridge? Or do you mean players who have played for decades and never learned much?

If the former, then they need to learn the same stuff that young players need to learn. The pace may be not as rapid, simply because it is scientifically proven and well-known fact that young people learn new stuff faster than old ones, but I don't understand at all the point of bringing age into the mix of what topics a bridge lesson should contain?

If the latter, give up trying to teach these players. It is going to result in confusion, no matter what the bridge topic is. Let them enjoy the game in the form they want to enjoy it and teach them only when they BEG (or offer large sums of money...semi-kidding) to take lessons and WANT to improve.

[CSGibson]

peachy, on Mar 14 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

Old players? Do you mean old people who are just now taking up bridge? Or do you mean players who have played for decades and never learned much?

If the former, then they need to learn the same stuff that young players need to learn. The pace may be not as rapid, simply because it is scientifically proven and well-known fact that young people learn new stuff faster than old ones, but I don't understand at all the point of bringing age into the mix of what topics a bridge lesson should contain?

If the latter, give up trying to teach these players. It is going to result in confusion, no matter what the bridge topic is. Let them enjoy the game in the form they want to enjoy it and teach them only when they BEG (or offer large sums of money...semi-kidding) to take lessons and WANT to improve.

I agree with everything said here.

[H_KARLUK]

Hmm. Yet, I did not see any "in vin cib le" player in this planet.

[Free]

rogerclee, on Mar 14 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

Free, on Mar 14 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

Staying home...

Who do you think you are? One would think that after your recent string of terrible/wrong posts, you would at least have it in your heart to allow others to make mistakes at bridge too.

Anyway I think the biggest thing to do is to emphasize counting during the play of the hand and using this to visualize what the other players hold. In terms of bidding, I have found that the biggest problem among B/I players is that they don't bid game enough when it is indicated, such as a good trump fit or side fit, no waste in the opponents' suit, etc.

Man you clearly have no sense of humor, and no idea what is meant with a pure LOL. LOL's play for fun, for the social contact, they don't care if they make mistakes or not, they don't care if they win or lose. So what in the world do you want to teach such people??? And you're the one talking about terrible/wrong posts You're a joke!

[Hanoi5]

Quote

give up trying to teach these players

I'd probably prefer doing this and dedicate my efforts to young people but let's face it, these players are needed.

We seem clear in that it is more important to teach play/defense than bidding. But how about judgement? Should I do something about that? What?

[Gerben42]

Quote

We seem clear in that it is more important to teach play/defense than bidding. But how about judgement? Should I do something about that? What?

Many people earn their living by teaching these players. They prefer clear subjects, not wishy-washy judgement situations. It's for them the different point count systems are designed. Teach them what they want to learn. Keep them happy.

[kenberg]

If "What should they learn" translates to "What should I teach them" then I think there has to be a meeting of the minds on the objectives you both have. Being 70 I may have to admit to the O of LOL. I have no interest in learning relay precision. I don't actually care if I would win more playing the system, I don't want to. I don't really plan on playing the weak no trump either. Bridge Cruises hold no interest for me. Someone planning on teaching bridge probably has some ideas about what would interest him. There has to be a match.

Here is an example: I find it useful to sit down and look over some hands that I have played. I try to be as objective as possible about whether a bad, or good, result was based on faulty, or good, assessment and what I might have reasonably done differently. Anyone can do this, at least at some level. If someone says "that's too much trouble" then you know something about his interest in the game and you can decide whether you want to invest your time teaching him Lebensohl, or whatever.

In play, I think the one thing that a declarer should learn to do is to pause at trick 1, think of how many tricks he needs, and see if a line of play can be envisioned that would bring that many ricks home. Before taking a finesse, he should reflect on whether success will bring his total to the right amount. Maybe he already has the right amount if he just plays out the tops. And so on. Some hands are harder than others and you cannot always form a complete plan, at least sometimes I can't, but if he is playing 3NT he should give some thought to where nine tricks can be found.

Again, maybe he says this is too much work and again you have to decide where this leaves you.

[shintaro]

elianna has it to a tee

no ruddy use learning stupid conventions that only crop up once in a blue moon, and even then only if it coincides with february 29th

[barmar]

My mother is a LOL (early 70's), and has been playing social bridge for most of her life (although I think her preferred games are canasta and mah jongg). A few years ago she took lessons, but things we take for granted like Jacoby Transfers confused her.

[Codo]

I agree with the consensus, that there is no curriculum for older beginners.

You need to entertain the players who want to take lessons but cannot learn.
You need to teach the players who want to study and learn like anybody else.

[awm]

I've had the experience of teaching older players, when I had to fill in for a local pro/bridge teacher who was out of town for a month on a couple of occasions. Elianna handled his directing duties but she wanted me to do most of the lessons.

My observation is that the type of lesson that is often most well-received involves defense. This is something much less esoteric than conventions, and is something that many intermediate level players find extremely frustrating (more so than declarer play, where they at least can see all of their side's assets). A bit about competitive bidding also helps. Here are three lessons I've tried that seemed very well-received:

(1) Importance of signals on defense, especially count. Some examples where ducking a particular trick can totally flummox declarer. A nice one is where dummy holds AQJTxx and out in a suit and you are defending 3NT with Kx(x) behind dummy and need to duck to cut communications. If declarer started with singleton then ducking is a disaster (especially ducking from Kx, trust me, I did this once when partner signaled the wrong count) but otherwise it can be a great play.

(2) Opening leads. Obviously a big area, but distinguishing passive versus aggressive leads and some idea of when to apply each can be extremely helpful and easily applied. Easy examples are to prefer passive leads against an invitational auction, aggressive leads when opponents may have a running suit, and trump leads against "preference" auctions like 1M-1N-2m-P.

(3) Raising partner in competition, including the idea that jumping to the three or four level is mostly obstructive and cuebidding is better with a good hand.