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Forcing pass systems Do they works

#1 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 08:46

I'm curios to know, does forcing pass systems are supirior to "normal" system ?
Are there world class players who play them, and successed with them ?
Do you think they will eventually be allowed in the world regulation ?
How long do you think it will take ?
Do you think even long time from now, that those systems will be common, more common then "normal" systems ?
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#2 User is offline   csdenmark 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 09:05

Flame, on May 6 2004, 04:46 PM, said:

I'm curios to know, does forcing pass systems are supirior to "normal" system ?
No but much more fun to play. Maybe because they are unusual. Due to the 8-12 openings, they technically have some kind of superior to standard openings. But if you have a decent defense system - such really doesnt matter.

Flame, on May 6 2004, 04:46 PM, said:

Are there world class players who play them, and successed with them ?
Balicki/Zmudzinski I am informed. Nobody seems to have their convention card for such - so ?????

Flame, on May 6 2004, 04:46 PM, said:

Do you think they will eventually be allowed in the world regulation ?
How long do you think it will take ?
In Bermuda Bowl and top tourney's nearly everything is allowed - also strong pass systems. In Cavendish Fred has informed of strong system regulations - so I think not there.

Flame, on May 6 2004, 04:46 PM, said:

Do you think even long time from now, that those systems will be common, more common then "normal" systems ?
Never again I think - but I never give up hope!

-------------------------------------------------

TEST them yourself. At least Lambda is that simple so all can participate.

http://groups.msn.co...FILES/pass.msnw
http://groups.msn.co...S/beznazwy.msnw
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 09:57

Bidtechnically they are superior, because you get one extra bid when you are strong (13+HCP). This means you get more bidding space for all kind of purpose, like relay auctions, slam aproach,... When you have 0-12 HCP (about 66% of the time), you open at 1-level, and has the possibility to destroy most system bases. With 0-7HCP usually people open 1, and it takes half the 1-level of bidding space away. Opponents are already in defense before they had a chance to do something.

Yes, it has won big events, but I can't give any names. Aparently Balicki/Zmudzinski...

They will probably be allowed forever in the biggest events, but from the moment you're not at the top of your country or the world, it'll be banned forever I think. If you look at the general direction the rulings are going, it's most of the time to 'protect' the beginners from too much artificial systems. In some countries a system may not even have a meaningless 'relay'!! :blink: Brown stickers are banned all over the place, as for HUM's, and I don't see any reason why they will ever come back. I also don't see a reason why they should be banned, but it's not in my hands ;)

Since they are banned all over the place, I don't see these systems become common. The only medium to spread it is online bridge, and even there you don't see them much. I guess expert level tourneys might have one pair from time to time at this moment, however, I haven't seen them :( ... And if you'd play it, you'd sure get bad comment from opps! Yesterday there was an abalucy tourney and 1 pair was already complaining about our Moscito transfer openings... I thought "whatever", but it seems a lot of people don't like to play against systems they are not used to. And I personally wouldn't start to learn a system which you can't play everywhere, it's a waste of energy and there are a lot of other fun systems (like Moscito) which can do as much as strong pass systems.
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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 10:59

I believe fairly strongly that Strong Pass systems are technically superior to standard bidding methods. Rather than boring people with a technical presentation about relative frequencies, I'll simply note three useful datapoints:

1. The Bridge police have implemented a wide variety of regulations and restrictions designed to protect "standard" methods against strong pass systems. These regulations would not be necessary if standard bidding was able to succeed on technical merit.

2. Standards regarding the minimum strength required for constructive opening bids are steadily decreasing.

3. Most serious scientific studies of bidding inevitably start leading down the slippery slope towards strong pass.

>Are there world class players who play them, and successed with them ?

At one point in time, strong pass systems were in relatively widespread use in many parts of the world. Most pairs were forced to abandon these methods because they weren't able to employ them in tournament play. I know a number of leading strong pass players; most of whom are very vehement regarding why they switched to more standard methods.

>Do you think they will eventually be allowed in the world regulation ?
>How long do you think it will take ?

Depends on improvements in geriatric medicine.
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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 11:24

>Do you think even long time from now, that those
>systems will be common, more common then "normal"
>systems?

On a more serious note:

As I already commented, standards regarding the minimum strength necessary for a constructive opening bid are steadily falling and the trend seems to be accelerating.

In turn, pairs are being forced to adopt all sorts of complexity in order to make sense of their constructive auctions. Artificial 2C continuations over major suit openings are a classic example of this type of innovation.

My suspicion is that players are eventually going to get sick and tired of this type of complexity and recognize that bidding systems designed from first principles actually allow radically simplified bidding structures...
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#6 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 16:33

I have played Strong pass , played against it and played SP systems against a SP system. They are technically superior because as has been pointed out, they give you more room. They are also a lot of fun to play.

To the best of my knowledge virtually no one plays them anymore because they have been legislated out of existence. Balicki - Zmudzinski USED to play Suspensor, but have played Polish Club for a long time now, at least 10 years.

SP systems are still legal in Australia in 14+ board matches in National events. So you get a few intrepid New Zealanders wielding T-Rex, the most horrific system to play and to play against ever.

Unfortunately I don't think we will see widespread use of SP systems due to silly system restrictions.
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#7 User is offline   csdenmark 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 16:48

Marcel has been very helpful providing me this link:

http://groups.google.nl/groups?q=suspensor...d.net.au&rnum=1

I have contacted Michal Rosa, Australia and hope soon to have the convention card.
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Posted 2004-May-06, 17:10

Does anybody have a translation in english of suspensor 3k1? I don't understand polish language... :blink:
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#9 User is offline   csdenmark 

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Posted 2004-May-06, 18:07

Free, on May 7 2004, 01:10 AM, said:

Does anybody have a translation in english of suspensor 3k1? I don't understand polish language... :blink:

I dont understand what you mean by 3k1. But generally Suspensor is very much alike Bez Nazwy. Look into that.
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#10 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 00:35

It is true that in major events, except at the pinnacle of the world, SP systems have been legislated out. At club level however they have not (at least not in the UK). At least so I believe. The sponsoring organisation (EBU) delegates to clubs considerable autonomy on the matter of permitted conventions, and of course any club that is not affiliated to a national sponsoring organisation (or perhaps one that is but runs an event that does not qualify for master points) has greater autonomy still.

It is then down to clubs to bow to the democratic wishes of their own members.

Theory aside that is not much help. The membership of most clubs is made up of players who are not interested in playing SP systems and less interested in defending against them. Even those who want to play them would have their motivation quashed by the realisation that they could not go on to take advantage of that practice in a wider event.

I don't think that Hrothgar's analysis (that the existence of legislation proves the merit of the method) is entirely convincing. Taken to its logical conclusion, no legislation would ever be necessary (if the argument were valid) as market forces would lead to extinction those methods without technical merit. In practice, under such a framework, any pair could obtain a substantial advantage by playing a method that has no theoretical technical merit against a prepared opposition but which in the absence of such preparation has increased practical value. To allow that practice would not I think be in the interests of the game.

Personally I think that a "Limited Constructive but non-forcing Pass" system may be the best, as it requires the opponents to use constructive methods against it, they do not have "double" of pass available, and they cannot pass in second seat confident of having a rebid. Next to that, I think that a SP (forcing) system that contains some weak options, again to force the opponents to adopt constructive defensive methods, would also be better than a "pure" unlimited forcing SP system.
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 01:44

1eyedjack, on May 7 2004, 05:35 PM, said:

snipped
I don't think that Hrothgar's analysis (that the existence of legislation proves the merit of the method) is entirely convincing.  Taken to its logical conclusion, no legislation would ever be necessary (if the argument were valid) as market forces would lead to extinction those methods without technical merit.  In practice, under such a framework, any pair could obtain a substantial advantage by playing a method that has no theoretical technical merit against a prepared opposition but which in the absence of such preparation has increased practical value.  To allow that practice would not I think be in the interests of the game.

Personally I think that a "Limited Constructive but non-forcing Pass" system may be the best, as it requires the opponents to use constructive methods against it, they do not have "double" of pass available, and they cannot pass in second seat confident of having a rebid.  Next to that, I think that a SP (forcing) system that contains some weak options, again to force the opponents to adopt constructive defensive methods, would also be better than a "pure" unlimited forcing SP system.

I am not going to get involved in a discussion here as it is impossible to convince people who have deep seated views. However the above does require a reply. Market forces do weed out methods without technical merit. Who still plays Monaco for example.

To use the argument "not in the interests of the game" is of course, ridiculous. Where is this proven, where is the evidence apart from purely subjective and judgemental opinion? Most of the people making comments like this have never played or played against a SP system and know very little about them. Any pair in serious competition has meta agreements which can be ported to defence against various artificial agreements. The monocled one has also totally contradicted himself as I would be very interested to know how a pair that plays methods that have "no theoretical technical merit" can gain a "substantial advantage", substantial disadvantage more likely.

As for limited constructive, but non forcing pass openings - these have been tried and found wanting. Thy are far too vulnerable to pre emption, more than a straight SP believe it or not! The English system TRS was one such and there were a few others. They died a natural death. As with big club systems like Moscito, it is in fact the limited openings, (8-12 in the case of many SP systems), which are the HUGE winners. The strong pass is a losing bid. The Fert, usually 1D or 1H also gains a little as it forces the opponents to start their constructive auctions at a higher level. As Richard pointed out in a thread on Moscito, where the 1C 15+ opening is not a bid on which you expect to gain, the same can be said for the Strong Pass.
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#12 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 03:13

Hi Flame!

Quote

I'm curios to know, does forcing pass systems are supirior to "normal" system ?

->Mainly depend of ability of opponents to preempt our forcing pass and penalise our 1 opening, like precision. In not vul they are superior, in vul - worse.

Quote

Are there world class players who play them, and successed with them ?

->Yes, in the past - polish, swedish, danish... National teams included at least 1 pair that played SP. Swedish national team had sveral major successes.

Quote

Do you think they will eventually be allowed in the world regulation ?

->No. The rich players/sponsors are too lazy to permit such cahnge :( '

Quote

How long do you think it will take ?

As long as money means something for people ;) .

Quote

Do you think even long time from now, that those systems will be common, more common then "normal" systems ?

->Never, sorry

Misho
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 05:18

The_Hog, on May 7 2004, 02:44 AM, said:

[.......]Market forces do weed out methods without technical merit. [........] To use the argument "not in the interests of the game" is of course, ridiculous. Where is this proven, where is the evidence apart from purely subjective and judgemental opinion? Most of the people making comments like this have never played or played against a SP system and know very little about them. [........]

IMHO, this goes too far. Even when playing fairly innocent systems such as T-Walsh and multi-coloured 2, I notice a significant advantage when playing against partnerships who have limited experience and agreements as to the defense against such methods. Unexperienced players sometimes find it interesting to try improvising a defense against bizare methods, others don't appreciate it. Depending on the skills and humor of the opps, it may be ethically unacceptable to play any weak, artificial, non-standard methods, or everything may be acceptable, but it is dessirable to keep the rules uniform. The BSC regulations is a compromise. They may be experienced as too liberal by some players and as too strict by others.

That a weak pass and constructive openings are considered "standard" may be arbitrary. In a different world, one can immagine, SP systems are tought to beginnes and weak-pass systems allowed only at top level.
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Posted 2004-May-07, 05:33

If you play poker, you're allowed to pass with every hand, and you're allowed to call/raise with every hand as well - no rules. If you call it a bluff, whatever, but it's allowed! Why can't people leave all these silly rules out of the greatest cardgame, and let everybody have his fun in system design? Give the beginners something to think off, and they'll become better players.
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#15 User is offline   csdenmark 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 05:57

I tend to agree with Helene. I dont like the restrictions either but in fact I think we are just talking about 2 games with the same name: Bridge.

On BBO we don't have such restrictions. So what is the problem. All have the option to choose partners and opps. according to preferences. I think much of the problems are those of us who are proponents of the specialized systems do nothing real to play with and against each other but mostly play opps. to people who prefer not to deal with such. We dont want to accept their complaints for our methods are unfair to those who dont know them and prefer to stay in that way.

I tell you I have no problems to play opps. to Moscito with transfer openings once in a while. But if I had to do so often - I would avoid those people.

----------------------------------------

I have received a message from Michal Rosa. He is moving his residence at the moment therefore it will take a little time until we can have the Balicki/Zmudzinski convention card.
----------------------------------------

Misho gave me an impulse to look into info about the scandinavian approach to pass systems. Flodquist have now improved his web-sites very much. For those who can understand the swedish language here:

http://w1.836.telia....t/carrotti.html

Regarding danes Lars Blakset informs they mostly played Regres. I know Peter Koch Larsen was one of those. The Aarhus pair Johs. Hulgaard-Steen Schou played a swedish relay system called "Little Säffle Spade". Info about that in "Modern Bridge" 1982 by P. Svinhufvud.
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#16 User is offline   MarceldB 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 09:38

The_Hog, on May 6 2004, 05:33 PM, said:

Balicki - Zmudzinski USED to play Suspensor, but have played Polish Club for a long time now, at least 10 years.

Correctly.
They did 2 sessions with Suspensor for a bid contest for the Dutch bridge Magazine IMP (Jan/Feb. 2003). For your info I have made today a pdf
file of the 1st session.

Please do not blame me that at the same time I have added my bidding sequences according REGRESsion too :(

Regards,
Marcel
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#17 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 14:11

The_Hog, on May 7 2004, 02:44 AM, said:

I am not going to get involved in a discussion here as it is impossible to convince people who have deep seated views.
Not like you, eh?

The_Hog, on May 7 2004, 02:44 AM, said:

However the above does require a reply.
This from someone who accuses me of contradicting myself:

The_Hog, on May 7 2004, 02:44 AM, said:

The monocled one has also totally contradicted himself as I would be very interested to know how a pair that plays methods  that have "no theoretical technical merit" can gain a "substantial advantage"
There is a world of difference between a method that has "no theoretical technical merit" and one that has (to correct the quote) "no theoretical technical merit against ... opposition ... in the absence of ... preparation". As the rest of the post relies on confusion between these terms it does not warrant further response, suffice it to say that a case that relies on misquoting is in my view a case conceded.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#18 User is offline   MarceldB 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 14:38

MarceldB, on May 7 2004, 10:38 AM, said:

Balicki - Zmudzinski did 2 sessions with Suspensor for a bid contest for the Dutch bridge Magazine IMP (Jan/Feb. 2003). For your info I have made today a pdf file of the 1st session

and herewith the second session of 6 boards:



cheers,
Marcel
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#19 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 17:37

"There is a world of difference between a method that has "no theoretical technical merit" and one that has (to correct the quote) "no theoretical technical merit against ... opposition ... in the absence of ... preparation".

A method either has technical merit or not. To say that preparation, or the lack of it, contributes or changes the level of technical merit is a reductio ad absurdum.
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#20 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-May-07, 18:05

The_Hog, on May 7 2004, 06:37 PM, said:

"There is a world of difference between a method that has "no theoretical technical merit" and one that has (to correct the quote) "no theoretical technical merit against ... opposition ... in the absence of ... preparation".

A method either has technical merit or not. To say that preparation, or the lack of it, contributes or changes the level of technical merit is a reductio ad absurdum.

Agreed. It does not change the level of technical merit in a method. But it does change your expected gain or loss from its use.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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