[frouu]

Scoring: IMP

pass - (pass) - 1♦ - 3♥
dbl** - (pass) - ???

**9-12 4+♠

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[ArtK78]

3♠. Hope we don't wind up in a 3-3 fit.

[keylime]

At MPs, I might pass and try for +200 and such. At IMPs, no way in heck.

[Echognome]

3♠. Not too happy about it, but at least heart ruffs can come in the short trump hand.

[mikeh]

3♠ No second choice at any form of scoring. Passing (presumably only at mps) is too hard on my stomach, and not good for partnership discipline even if it works.

[kenrexford]

No passed hand forces a decision at 3♠ or higher opposite a third-seat opening without diamond support, and probably five of them at that.

A typical hand might be ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦AQxxx ♣x.

Or so.

So, 4♦ for me.

I think a pass fails a lot when Declarer has a stiff diamond, and I think 3NT is shy one trick.

[benlessard]

4C seems clear cut.

Partner will bid 3S with 5S and 3D. So either hes got short D or hes got 3/4S. Both case tell me that 4C will play better. Over 4C he can bid 4S to show 5S and C support and a maximum.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Nov 12 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

No passed hand forces a decision at 3♠ or higher opposite a third-seat opening without diamond support, and probably five of them at that.

A typical hand might be ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦AQxxx ♣x.

Or so.

So, 4♦ for me.

I think a pass fails a lot when Declarer has a stiff diamond, and I think 3NT is shy one trick.

So if you held that hand with the minors reversed you would pass?? Or is it that you think partner would pass if you rebid 4♣???

I know you like being weird for the sake of being weird, and generally it doesn't bother me. But sometimes it's nice to say something that will cause people to take your opinion seriously as well!

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Nov 12 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

No passed hand forces a decision at 3♠ or higher opposite a third-seat opening without diamond support, and probably five of them at that.

A typical hand might be ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦AQxxx ♣x.

Or so.

So, 4♦ for me.

I think a pass fails a lot when Declarer has a stiff diamond, and I think 3NT is shy one trick.

So if you held that hand with the minors reversed you would pass?? Or is it that you think partner would pass if you rebid 4♣???

I know you like being weird for the sake of being weird, and generally it doesn't bother me. But sometimes it's nice to say something that will cause people to take your opinion seriously as well!

The problem hand you mention is ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦x ♣AQxxx?

Yes. I would pass. Actually, I probably would open that hand, so I'd need a little less for my call. Maybe only the club Jack. Then, I'd definitely pass.

[maggieb]

kenrexford, on Nov 12 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Nov 12 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

No passed hand forces a decision at 3♠ or higher opposite a third-seat opening without diamond support, and probably five of them at that.

A typical hand might be ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦AQxxx ♣x.

Or so.

So, 4♦ for me.

I think a pass fails a lot when Declarer has a stiff diamond, and I think 3NT is shy one trick.

So if you held that hand with the minors reversed you would pass?? Or is it that you think partner would pass if you rebid 4♣???

I know you like being weird for the sake of being weird, and generally it doesn't bother me. But sometimes it's nice to say something that will cause people to take your opinion seriously as well!

The problem hand you mention is ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦x ♣AQxxx?

Yes. I would pass. Actually, I probably would open that hand, so I'd need a little less for my call. Maybe only the club Jack. Then, I'd definitely pass.

Why do you think it is reasonable to be this pessimistic in this sort of auction? Even if partner doubles back in, you are in a worse position than if you had just doubled and shown your hand. If partner passes it out, it could be a disaster.

Also I don't understand why you say you would open the hand, it is clearly not an opening bid in a modern 2/1 style. Maybe it is an opening bid in whatever system or style you like to play, but that's just not the question.

Yes, passing could work; RHO could be heavy and this could be a misfit, but anyway, your opponents will have a hard time doubling you on this kind of auction when it is right. I would rather lose a few partscore battles than think myself unlucky whenever partner has a "perfecto" with 4 spades!

[jdonn]

As I said, he likes being weird for the sake of being weird. It's the same concept as telling a little white lie, when you then have to resort to bigger and bigger lies to try and save face (I'm not saying he is lying, merely using an analagous situation). When he claims some absurd nonsensical bid, then he has to run with it no matter what other ridiculous conclusions it would have him reach (such as not making a negative double with that hand) because otherwise he might have to admit that the best actions were normal.

If you continue to take him seriously, it's like blowing on a fire that is too big to blow out, you will only make it burn for even longer. Better to just walk away and let it slowly fizzle out.

[neilkaz]

negX= 4+♠ and 9-12..so 3♠ for me noting PD can ruff ♥ in the short hand if needed.

4m bids don't come close to appealing to me here.

[Codo]

neilkaz, on Nov 13 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

negX= 4+♠ and 9-12..so 3♠ for me noting PD can ruff ♥ in the short hand if needed.

4m bids don't come close to appealing to me here.

I agree that the 4 of a minor bids are not appealing.

But pass 3 NT and 3 Spade are no good choices either.

I think that 3 Spade is the best of all the bad calls.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

As I said, he likes being weird for the sake of being weird. It's the same concept as telling a little white lie, when you then have to resort to bigger and bigger lies to try and save face (I'm not saying he is lying, merely using an analagous situation). When he claims some absurd nonsensical bid, then he has to run with it no matter what other ridiculous conclusions it would have him reach (such as not making a negative double with that hand) because otherwise he might have to admit that the best actions were normal.

If you continue to take him seriously, it's like blowing on a fire that is too big to blow out, you will only make it burn for even longer. Better to just walk away and let it slowly fizzle out.

Let's see.

The problem from OPENER's standpoint in this actual situation is that OPENER, looking at a primed-out 13-count with perfect shape is really worried about what call to make, as everything seems doomed to go down. This is with a hand that is almost good enough to reopen with a double.

I'm not sure, then, why Responder would need to make a call with 4315 shape. If Responder could not open, then he has a hand weak enough where Opener will reopen enough when being in the auction is right.

Where Responder is weaker in HCP but nonetheless needs to bid, his diamonds are longer.

Call this weird if you want. But, I'd bet that running a simulation, Opener will pass opposite a 4315 pass for a bad result less often than passing the auction out would be right.

Now, had you suggested that Responder might have 4135 shape for his double, I'd buy that. Responder probably should stretch to double when he has shortness in the heart suit. If that were the case, then 4♣ has merit. However, looking at a doubleton heart, I don't buy it. I think the more likely scenario on this hand is the other, and I would not want to have a 4♣-P-4♦ sequence because the risk of a double is higher. Give Opener 2344 shape, and 4♣ stands out more.

[benlessard]

4D is just dumb but im pretty sure 4C is a better bid than 3S.

Partner hands could be

4/5, 5/4, 4/6, 4/4 in the blacks.

4/4, 4/5 in S+D. Note that 4S and 3D without 4C is highly unlikely since that would mena having 3H.

With most 6S hands he would open or preempt.
With all 5S+3/4 D hands he would bid 3S.