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When all is said and done...

#1 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 07:15

Mixed feelings about last night's results:

Yes, its great that Obama won...
Yes, its great that the Democrats picked up a bunch of seats...

However, all this was predictable.

There's a few things that I was hoping for that just didn't seem to break our way.

I'm very disappointed that Proposition 8 failed. I think its a dramatic step backwards.

I would have loved to see Mitch McConnell go down in flames. Sadly, he survived the night. Looks like Coleman did the same. Chamblis as well...
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 08:54

I think you mean "proposition 8 passed". It's unbelievable, I used to think California was a somewhat enlightened state.
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#3 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 09:07

Mixed feelings about today and the future:

Today is a great and important one for the whole world

But the hopes in all over the world are such a high, the global problems pile higher and higher, will a single man be able to shoulder all of it? I wish he will achive some important "part scores" in the foreseeable future... more can we not expect.

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#4 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 09:18

Aberlour10, on Nov 5 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

Mixed feelings about today and the future:

Today is a great and important one for the whole world

But the hopes in all over the world are such a high, the global problems pile higher and higher, will a single man be able to shoulder all of it? I wish he will achive some important "part scores" in the foreseeable future... more can we not expect.

Robert

Obama knows he needs help from everyone and consistently calls for "bottom-up" change. He can't do it all himself, but he can provide leadership.

McCain's concession speech called on his supporters to help. Obama called on US citizens to sacrifice for the benefit of their children and grandchildren. It was a great evening. Now the work begins.
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#5 User is offline   JoAnneM 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 09:24

I think California is very enlightened, we just need to chop off the bottom one-third of it or so - say from the grapevine down. It really should be two states.

I haven't looked at the results county by county because, actually they haven't called it yet although "yes" is running ahead. I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more advertising from the "no" side. The "yes" side was heavily financed and all we heard for weeks is how our first graders would be taken to gay weddings on field trips.

Even though "yes" is winning it is still a constitutional question so the fight might not be over. My gay friends here in California, some of whom are in the bridge world, are not going to give up.

At least California is "enlightened" to the point that I had a "vote no on measure 8" sign in my yard and it was never bothered, and I live on a busy road.
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#6 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 09:27

I'm a simple soul and my feelings are not mixed at all, I'm delighted.

We needed an election where someone won, as opposed to squeaked in, McCain's concession speech was first rate and I believe will be remembered, Obama's victory speech was both strong and gracious, drawing from MLK and Lincoln, speaking in terms of both hope and difficulty, I couldn't be happier about an election.

Analysis, decisions and work to come, but I am delighted.
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#7 User is offline   Lobowolf 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:31

I'm unhappy with the passage of Proposition 8, but I'm too unsurprised to call myself "disappointed." I never thought it had a chance. I'm actually almost encouraged that it was such a close vote, since when gay marriage was on the ballot while it was still illegal, it failed by more than a 60-40 margin.

As a Constitutional question, I don't think Proposition 8 is going to be disturbed. Gay marriage had been illegal in California; it became legal when the State Supreme Court's interpretation was that the ban violated the State Constitution. Proposition 8 didn't just provide for gay marriage to be banned; it provided for a black & white Constitutional change. Best chance is probably a 2010 "re-change" of the Constitution, which might have good chances, based on the dramatic trend between the previous vote and yesterday's.
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#8 User is online   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:32

PassedOut, on Nov 5 2008, 10:18 AM, said:

Aberlour10, on Nov 5 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

Mixed feelings about today and the future:

Today is a great and important one for the whole world

But the hopes in all over the world are such a high, the global problems pile higher and higher, will a single man be able to shoulder all of it? I wish he will achive some important "part scores" in the foreseeable future... more can we not expect.

Robert

Obama knows he needs help from everyone and consistently calls for "bottom-up" change. He can't do it all himself, but he can provide leadership.

McCain's concession speech called on his supporters to help. Obama called on US citizens to sacrifice for the benefit of their children and grandchildren. It was a great evening. Now the work begins.

This is what he has shown he can do. Get the grass roots mobilized and electrified. It should be very interesting.
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:33

I think in four years a similar proposition will pass in California if it's on the ballot. It gets closer every time. One day the world will stop being stupid.
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#10 User is online   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:38

Al_U_Card, on Nov 5 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

PassedOut, on Nov 5 2008, 10:18 AM, said:

Aberlour10, on Nov 5 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

Mixed feelings about today and the future:

Today is a great and important one for the whole world

But the hopes in all over the world are such a high, the global problems pile higher and higher, will a single man be able to shoulder all of it? I wish he will achive some important "part scores" in the foreseeable future... more can we not expect.

Robert

Obama knows he needs help from everyone and consistently calls for "bottom-up" change. He can't do it all himself, but he can provide leadership.

McCain's concession speech called on his supporters to help. Obama called on US citizens to sacrifice for the benefit of their children and grandchildren. It was a great evening. Now the work begins.

This is what he has shown he can do. Get the grass roots mobilized and electrified. It should be very interesting.

If you recall, LBJ did the same thing. He created the "Great Society" passed lots of legislation and created huge expectations.....and then when nothing significant happened in the "real world"....Watt's riots, Detroit riots, Vietnam protests......you can't wave a sizzling steak in front of a hungry man and not expect him to try and get it any way he can...
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#11 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:52

No mixed feelings here in Virginia. We're very fortunate to have a guy like Mark Warner representing us in the Senate. Not that that was a close election.
"If you lose all hope, you can always find it again." ― Richard Ford, The Sportswriter
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#12 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 10:56

Given that it was 8 long years in the waiting, Obama's victory was very sweet indeed.

It was anti-climatic in the end, but better that than the gut wrenching feeling of seeing Kerry go down four years ago (after campaigning long and hard for him).

And yes, it will be great if measure 8 down too...
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#13 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 11:14

jdonn, on Nov 5 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

I think in four years a similar proposition will pass in California if it's on the ballot. It gets closer every time. One day the world will stop being stupid.

It's possible that having Obama on the ticket had a significant impact on the referendum...

As I understand matters, almost every ethnic group in CA voted against the referendum. The one exception was African Americans who broke 2:1 in favor of Proposition 8.
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#14 User is offline   Lobowolf 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 11:20

hrothgar, on Nov 5 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 5 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

I think in four years a similar proposition will pass in California if it's on the ballot. It gets closer every time. One day the world will stop being stupid.

It's possible that having Obama on the ticket had a significant impact on the referendum...

As I understand matters, almost every ethnic group in CA voted against the referendum. The one exception was African Americans who broke 2:1 in favor of Proposition 8.

Might get a re-changed California Constitution in less than 4 years; assuming that Obama will be on the presidential ticket again in 2012, the mid-cycle congressional election could be a better bet. Gay marriage in California might very well have been collateral damage in the Democratic primary.
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#15 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 11:24

jdonn, on Nov 5 2008, 11:33 AM, said:

I think in four years a similar proposition will pass in California if it's on the ballot. It gets closer every time. One day the world will stop being stupid.

Dream on.
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#16 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 12:36

Joanne wrote,"I think California is very enlightened, we just need to chop off the bottom one-third of it or so - say from the grapevine down. It really should be two states."

Neil replies, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see that this Northern Californian
attidude still persists nearly 20 years after I left the state. I vididly recall in 1991 when I moved from San Diego to Marin County for a year (the people and attidudes were so different that I thought I'd moved to Mars) that so often, when things weren't exactly the way the wanted, the Nprthern Californians blamed it on the Southern Californians. Off course, the reverse was true, but to a lessor extent.

Neil asks, is this attitude really the way for California to try to remain our nation's leader as we progress further into the 21st century ?
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#17 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 12:45

Re: Prop 8:

Perhaps the wording of the legal concept of gay marriage should be changed.

Many religions, cultures, etc define marriage as the union of a man and a woman and don't feel that gays should be "married".

Why not call it a civil union, civil partnership, or just use the term partnership ?

Maybe by changing the wording, the desired result can be achieved and that desired result should be for gays couples joined in legal union to have exactly the same rights, benefits, and obligations as do heterosexual couples joined in legal union.

Just realized that there are many who object, at least somewhat, to the term
"marriage" except for heterosexual couples.
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#18 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 12:46

neilkaz, on Nov 5 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

Neil asks, is this attitude really the way for California to try to remain our nation's leader as we progress further into the 21st century ?

you tell me... is discriminating based on sexual orientation to move into the 21st century?
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#19 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 12:49

neilkaz, on Nov 5 2008, 01:45 PM, said:

Why not call it a civil union, civil partnership, or just use the term partnership ?

separate, but equal?

great idea.

if you're going to go changing anything, why not change what the state offers to EVERYONE be a civil union, and have churches/temples/whatevers issue their own marriages that have no legal standing.
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#20 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-November-05, 12:58

neilkaz, on Nov 5 2008, 01:45 PM, said:

Why not call it a civil union, civil partnership, or just use the term partnership ?

Maybe by changing the wording, the desired result can be achieved and that desired result should be for gays couples joined in legal union to have exactly the same rights, benefits, and obligations as do heterosexual couples joined in legal union.

I think the main reason is that our country has a long history of "separate but equal" treatment which did not work out very well. Giving a different name to a committed homosexual relationship than is given to a committed heterosexual relationship implies that homosexual couples remain second class citizens, and leaves the door open for discrimination and different legal rights.

Perhaps the solution is for the government to get out of the marriage business entirely, recognizing that marriage often carries religious connotations, and simply to recognize civil unions the same for all couples. Then being "married" is something between the married couple and their friends, family, and church (with no legal standing), and a "civil union" is a binding contract that carries certain legal rights (including tax rates, hospital visitation, medical coverage, etc) and responsibilities (child care, joint holding of debts).

Then again, I bet an attempt to make this change would be viewed by heterosexual couples as devaluing their marriage. If so... perhaps this helps to explain why homosexual couples view the marriage/civil union distinction as devaluing their relationship?
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