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When to avoid stayman

Poll: When to avoid stayman (64 member(s) have cast votes)

When to avoid stayman

  1. I always look for a 4-4 (6 votes [9.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.38%

  2. Anytime I have a 4333 shape (28 votes [43.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.75%

  3. Anytime I have a 4333 and soft cards (10 votes [15.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.62%

  4. Anytime I have a 4333, soft cards and extras (10 votes [15.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.62%

  5. I will do it on a 4M(324) with the right hand (10 votes [15.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.62%

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#1 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:29

Assume its matchpoints and you have at least 10 points.

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. When will you avoid the use of Stayman?
"Phil" on BBO
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:34

When I'm 4333.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:34

Soft cards should probably be a factor, too, but basically I Stayman if I have a doubleton.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#4 User is offline   marcD 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:35

Never . Actually I bid 3 with 4M333 and partner can relay if interested .
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:39

I don't stayman if 4333, and I usually don't stayman with 4432 hands if my doubleton is very strong and my major is weak. The last one has given me fairly mixed results so far, sometimes better sometimes worse and usually not mattering much.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#6 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 13:52

Ditto Josh, plus stronger hands will be less likely to use Stayman - I'd just bid 3NT on a 4432 with Qx and 13+.
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#7 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 14:05

I am more likely to stayman at matchpoints.
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#8 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 14:06

At matchpoints, I tend to avoid Stayman with 4333 and with above-minimum game forcing hands.

Normally, if the combined hands have about 29-31 HCP they will make the same number of tricks in notrump as in a suit contract if both hands are balanced.

At IMPs, I tend to Stayman all the time. There is always the chance that your doubleton will be opposite partner's doubleton or one of you will have a weak 3 card holding opposite shortness.

My response does not fall into any one of the poll categories neatly, so I did not vote.
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#9 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 14:07

MickyB, on Oct 27 2008, 10:52 PM, said:

Ditto Josh, plus stronger hands will be less likely to use Stayman - I'd just bid 3NT on a 4432 with Qx and 13+.

What he said:

The 4-4 major suit fit is much more likely to generate an extra trick if we have 24-26 HCP than 27-28.
Alderaan delenda est
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#10 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 14:25

I am almost exactly the opposite of Art.

With two balanced hands, the 4-4 major fit will usually produce one additional trick.

At IMPs, when the major fit produces one more trick I'm happy to be in 3NT even though it plays a trick worse. So it's just between the "major equal or worse" and the "major produces two more tricks." This is fairly close; when I am 4333 or have a strong doubleton it is unlikely that the major produces two more tricks so I will just bid 3NT.

At MPs, the most frequent "4-4 fit one-trick better" situation means you have to bid 4M on these hands. So I would virtually always bid stayman.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#11 User is offline   jdeegan 

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Posted 2008-October-27, 23:17

:) The expert opinion (esp. at IMP's) is to avoid Stayman when the combined point count is 29 to 31 HCP, the major fit is potentially weak, and your hand is balanced - 4-3-3-3, or 4-4-3-2 shape. You avoid losing three unavoidable trump tricks plus another when you have most of the power.

Old fashioned lesson - read and learn.
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 02:38

ArtK78, on Oct 27 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

At matchpoints, I tend to avoid Stayman with 4333 and with above-minimum game forcing hands.

Normally, if the combined hands have about 29-31 HCP they will make the same number of tricks in notrump as in a suit contract if both hands are balanced.

At IMPs, I tend to Stayman all the time. There is always the chance that your doubleton will be opposite partner's doubleton or one of you will have a weak 3 card holding opposite shortness.

My response does not fall into any one of the poll categories neatly, so I did not vote.

agree.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#13 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 05:08

I don't make much change in my style here between MPs and IMPs although I am occasionally willing to take more risks with 3NT at MPs.

I bid 3NT without investigating a 4-4 major fit when the hand fits 'enough' of the following hand types:

4-3-3-3
4-4-3-2 with a strong doubleton
a preponderance of Queens and Jacks over Aces and Kings
good spots - tens and nines
extra values

I tend not to bid 3NT without investigating a potential major fit with:

weak doubletons
two or more weak three-card suits
Wayne Burrows

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#14 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 08:46

I'm drawing up a lesson plan and my thinking was more along the lines of Art's: Don't use Stayman with extras, and a 4-3-3-3. This is what I've always been taught, and I haven't seen a lot of contradictory evidence.

I've also believed that soft cards and intermediates are a NT indicator, but perhaps that is just a tie-breaker.

4432 with a strong doubleton may or may not produce the extra trick. It is dependent on pard's holding opposite.
"Phil" on BBO
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#15 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 20:42

Edit: awm pointed out that my conclusions were faulty, I'm going to rerun the simulations with bigger sample sizes and (I hope) better address the MP angle.
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#16 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 20:59

pclayton, on Oct 27 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Assume its matchpoints and you have at least 10 points.

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. When will you avoid the use of Stayman?

The system design should allow the responder to find 4-4 fit and still be able to stay in 3NT if opener has the right cards. Also, so many open 1NT with 5M, so you really don't want to miss 5-4 fit 4M, in that case, skipping stayman should be rather bad. So generally speaking, one should always try for stayman and the system design should allow him to choose 3NT or 4M when the major fit is discovered. Otherwise, many 5-4 fit and 4-4 fit suitable for 4M would be missed.
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#17 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-October-28, 21:33

junyi_zhu, on Oct 28 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 27 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Assume its matchpoints and you have at least 10 points.

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. When will you avoid the use of Stayman?

The system design should allow the responder to find 4-4 fit and still be able to stay in 3NT if opener has the right cards. Also, so many open 1NT with 5M, so you really don't want to miss 5-4 fit 4M, in that case, skipping stayman should be rather bad. So generally speaking, one should always try for stayman and the system design should allow him to choose 3NT or 4M when the major fit is discovered. Otherwise, many 5-4 fit and 4-4 fit suitable for 4M would be missed.

So that we can maximize the information available to defenders?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#18 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2008-October-29, 00:32

I never stayman with 4-3-3-3, I will always stayman with shortness somewhere, even if it's AK.

My partnerships often open 1N with a 5 card major, but I don't think that will make a difference; I'm never ruffing in the short hand if I'm playing in a trump contract, so missing a 5-4 fit isn't the end of the world, while hiding info from the defense on the 19 hands out of 20 where we don't have a 9 card trump fit always helps.
Chris Gibson
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#19 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-October-29, 04:15

cherdano, on Oct 29 2008, 04:33 AM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Oct 28 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 27 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Assume its matchpoints and you have at least 10 points.

Pard opens a 15-17 NT. When will you avoid the use of Stayman?

The system design should allow the responder to find 4-4 fit and still be able to stay in 3NT if opener has the right cards. Also, so many open 1NT with 5M, so you really don't want to miss 5-4 fit 4M, in that case, skipping stayman should be rather bad. So generally speaking, one should always try for stayman and the system design should allow him to choose 3NT or 4M when the major fit is discovered. Otherwise, many 5-4 fit and 4-4 fit suitable for 4M would be missed.

So that we can maximize the information available to defenders?

While concealing opener's distribution is worth something, I've noticed that whenever I get to 3NT with no stop in one of the suits in the auction 1NT - 3NT, the opponents have a horrible tendency either to lead the suit, or to switch to it.

If you don't have 9 cashing tricks, it's often wrong to play in 3NT even if you give the opponents a blind lead. Maybe this is taking a good idea too far, but in a way it might be in the long term be superior to raise 1NT to 3NT looking at a 2=6=3=2 distribution than a 3=4=3=3 hand.

I agree that system design should allow responder to discover if there is a 4-4 fit, offer the choice between the fit and 3NT, and keep declarer's hand type and range concealed. Funnily enough, in one partnership that makes looking for a fit with spades more tempting than looking with hearts, because more of opener's distribution is kept confidential.
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#20 User is offline   georgi 

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Posted 2008-October-29, 05:27

would you make stayman bid with

Jxxx Jxxx xxxx x

If yes, what you are going to call after

1nt ( partner ) - pas - 2(you), 3(LHO) - X ( partner) - pas - ?

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