[OleBerg]

It was I who wrote this

Blade, on Oct 15 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

some people say, that they should bring their daughters to him...cause they deserved it...that is UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't a serious statement, quite the contrary. I tried to be ironic towards all those people that criticized the German players. I thought the irony was obvious. I am sorry that it wasn't.

[hotShot]

There are sports where you can concede like Boxing, Snooker or Bridge.
There are others where you can give up for medical reasons like tennis and there are those where you can't concede like soccer.


If you are allowed to concede, you can do it any time.

[jdonn]

Wow this thread has grown unbelievably fast. Anyway I can not possibly think why anyone believes they should be punished for quitting, that is ridiculous and stupid. Of course their teammates might (or might not) have every right to be mad they quit, but that's for them to deal with.

As for "intentionally overbidding" uh Roland, they were down a ton with not much time left, of course they would intentionally overbid and hope it works! Do you have some example of a bid they made that you think should be punishable? I find some of the opinions expressed in this thread rather disgraceful (not the people who made them, simply the opinions).

[Walddk]

jdonn, on Oct 15 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

As for "intentionally overbidding" uh Roland, they were down a ton with not much time left, of course they would intentionally overbid and hope it works! Do you have some example of a bid they made that you think should be punishable?

You must have missed mrdct's post ...

Board 24: This one I have to say was pretty suspect in terms of the allegation of the Germans deliberately throwing imps. At Nil Vul after a first seat 3♠ opening, Wladow chose to double holding Kxx Axxx AQTx Jx which is neither here nor there, but after LHO bid 4♠ and it came back to him he doubled again! The opps then redoubled to play, Elinescu ran to 5♣ and Wladow sat that doubled which went for 1400 and 14 imps. Elinescu could have easily saved one trick and only gone for 1100.

[ASkolnick]

OK. I will stick out my nose here.

1) I don't like it conceding the match in the middle, but if it was done cordially I guess it was OK. It really doesn't affect anyone.

2) No problem with "swinging for the fences" in a knockout match if you are behind. As I always said, if you need to win by 50 in a game to make the playoffs, you should go for 2 every time. This is not unethical behavior. There needs to be a distinguishment between unethical behavior and maybe not best bridge or anti-field actions.

Unethical: Hesitating on doubles on-purpose to distinguish between penalty and takeout.
Bad Bridge: Bidding to a NT slam on 24 combined HCP.
Anti-percentage: Bidding 3NT in your 9-card major suit fit.


3) The legality of it I think must be in question. When after you go for several numbers in a row and you now here one of the players say "I don't feel well", I am quite suspicious. While although it may be true, it seems to be equivalent to my 6-year old son saying "I don't feel well or I'm tired" when he is losing at a board game. I will actually make him play the rest of the game and explain to him that even when you are getting beat, you congratulate and say "good game". The only reason why I question the legality about the exiting in the middle of a session is if he wanted to just "concede" the match, whether the guy was sick or not would not be relative.

There should be no punishment because there was no violation of law. However, to say this was good sportsmanship, I find it questionable at best.

So, if Blade wants to pan me, he can feel free to do so.

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 15 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

As for "intentionally overbidding" uh Roland, they were down a ton with not much time left, of course they would intentionally overbid and hope it works! Do you have some example of a bid they made that you think should be punishable?

You must have missed mrdct's post ...

Board 24: This one I have to say was pretty suspect in terms of the allegation of the Germans deliberately throwing imps. At Nil Vul after a first seat 3♠ opening, Wladow chose to double holding Kxx Axxx AQTx Jx which is neither here nor there, but after LHO bid 4♠ and it came back to him he doubled again! The opps then redoubled to play, Elinescu ran to 5♣ and Wladow sat that doubled which went for 1400 and 14 imps. Elinescu could have easily saved one trick and only gone for 1100.

Bad as the second double is, I don't think it's even CLOSE to punishable. It will usually lose badly, but could easily lead to good things and is simply a bad attempt at swinging.

[bidule4]

Blade, on Oct 15 2008, 10:26 AM, said:

We did a great job here in Bejing with reaching the semifinal - and I dont want anybody to shed a bad light on this achievement....

finally I am so disappointed about some of the comments here...but I hope some will think about their meaning!

ciao
Michael Gromoeller
proud member of German Open team !

Congrats Michael for your great performance in Beijing

yvan

[blackshoe]

Blade, on Oct 15 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

nobody of this forum was there...nobody knows the facts....and all are discussing here without seeing what happened!

I'm not.

Unfortunately, this is the internet. People will post without thinking and without knowing the facts. "Engage brain before putting mouth in gear" is not a rule well followed in this medium.

Hopefully, we can close the lid on this tempest in a teapot now. Thanks for the post, Michael.

[Aberlour10]

Blade, on Oct 15 2008, 10:26 AM, said:

We did a great job here in Bejing with reaching the semifinal - and I dont want anybody to shed a bad light on this achievement....

& good luck for tomorrow vs Norway! I am sure your team will show the right answer to all this here at the bridge table.

Robert

[glen]

blackshoe, on Oct 15 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

People will post without ... knowing the facts. ... Hopefully, we can close the lid ...

I think it is unfair for Gromoeller to introduce facts on his very 1st BBO forum post, thus ruining our chances for this thread to be record breaking.

[matmat]

I think the English team should be punished for accepting the resignation.

[Jeschiwa]

Hi Blade & Co.,

auch von mir viel Glück und Erfolg gegen Norwegen. Zeigt es allen !! und kommt gesund zurück nach Deutschland

Bis dann, Gruß Sandra

[Blade]

I hope that Mr. Wald will correct the facts tomorrow at bbo-vuegraf to everybody.

I just saw what he said on BBO...looking at the chatlog.

blaming the german players without knowing the facts in public !!

For the future I would like to have a BBO-vuegraf coordinator and commentator - who makes sure of the facts and then give statements- not saying it is a scandal and no medical reasons an all this without having an idea what was going on.
It is the second time that this happens know.....

thanks all the others for your greetings and we will trty tomorrow to win against the european masters and bermudabowl-champions...it will be a tough task for us!

bye
Michael Gromoeller

[drinbrasil]

Hallo all,

I am a member of the german team here in Bejing.

very nice.

When I see all this discussion, I get really sick.

hummmm really sick....

some people say, that they should bring their daughters to him...cause they deserved it...that is UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ironics, read it again.

nobody of this forum was there...nobody knows the facts....and all are discussing here without seeing what happened!

do you know ALL guys in the forum?

I just can say, that most of you should be banned in this forum!
This is bad words for 1st post.

Now I tell you the real facts:

Now you are doing a good thing. thanks!


After 8 Boards the TD was called at the table, cause they wanted to stop the match.
The TD arrives and said, that the captain form germany needs to agree to that decision.
The scorer was send to find the captain. unfortunatly the scorer could not find him and returned after 5 minutes. Then one german player said, that he also feels not so well and therefore wants to stop the match. The TD agreed and stopped the match.
And that is all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I somebody at BBO or at Vuegraf-theater said anything different- that is simply not true !!!!!!!!!

and if you think that somebody shpuld be banned- I dont understand why.

It is discussbale, if you should stop the match 16 boards of the end ( as norway and egypt did) or stop it 8 boards beofre the end. But the proceeding at the table was
agreed with the Tournament director!

No player left the room without permission -- NO captain forced any player to go back to the table - that statements are all complete NONSENS!


We did a great job here in Bejing with reaching the semifinal - and I dont want anybody to shed a bad light on this achievement....

true. congratulations!!

finally I am so disappointed about some of the comments here...but I hope some will think about their meaning!

you should think before write too.

ciao
Michael Gromoeller
proud member of German Open team !
bye!

[HedyG]

at the Olympics in Istanbul there was a flu virus running around. on the last day of the round robin my partner, Miriam Varenne, was on antibiotics and running high fever. however since one of our teammates had travelled home for family reasons we were just two pairs. we did not concede. the idea never came to us. we sat down and played the matches.of course we never stood to win any and qualify under those conditions. so what?
i remember Zia did the same............
i believe we did the right thing! and would do it again today.
and yes, i would feel unwell too if i paid 1100, 1400 and 1400

as for you Michael, you are right to be proud to be a member of a team that for 10 days delighted us all.

[jkljkl]

drinbrasil, on Oct 15 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

I just can say, that most of you should be banned in this forum!
This is bad words for 1st post.

We just saw one of the worst accusation in this forum and he should keep cool? Maybe he was not aware that there is nothing new about the style of Mr Wald.

My resume is that I learnt much more about the posters here than about the conceding pair.

Congratulations to both english Teams, a nice surprise.

ciao stefan
germany

[42]

Michael,
I am very proud of you and the performance of the whole team, which can be claimed to be constant, looking at the international results in the last major events!
I am not sure whether I made my position clear enough in this case before, and so I repeat it: I hate discussing, blaming and judging without knowing the facts. The keyword is respect.
BTW:does anybody believe that any experienced player is so stupid to bump an important success by simply misguarding the rules...?

Good luck for the rest of the games! Don't be angry anymore, it's not worth it, keep your energy!
Go go go!
Caren

[Rossoneri]

Roland, I am very ashamed by your behaviour.

Having been at the top level of bridge for so long, surely you would be able to tell the difference between trying for anti-percentage swings and deliberately overbidding to lose the match? Besides, insisting that a player deliberately dropped IMPs is a very serious accusation indeed, and I have not seen any proof of it so far from what I've gathered.

Also, are you trying to judge a player by his preceding reputation? So even if someone has erred in the past, he will not be able to change over a new leaf?

Now that the real facts of what happened at the table has emerged, I think you owe the German team a sincere apology, likewise everyone else who has called for heads to roll even before determining the facts.

I am sick and disgusted that a yellow who is no less than a vugraph commentator can make such defamatory comments in a public forum.

[kenrexford]

I see nothing wrong with what Germany did, condeding. In fact, I would consider it somewhat impolite to force the play to continue at this point, frankly.

I see nothing wrong with the actions taken at the table (as far as bridge actions). I do see somewhat of a pride "error," in that pulling out the win with wild tactics does not really yield a "win." But, I'm sure we all have done this. Two examples.

In a swiss, my partner answered aces wrong, getting us to a "safer" 6NT instead of 6♠, a vulnerable slam. This was doubled. Instead of an easy +1430, I managed a falsecard to save only -500 instead of -2300. On the next hand, I overcalled 1♣ all red with AKxx-xx-xx-AQ10xx by bidding 1NT. When partner transferred (2♦), doubled by Opener, I redoubled. Passed to Opener who tanked and then bid 3♣, hammered for +1400 and back to par.

After the first session of a pick-up partner regional pairs, we were dead last in the field. My LOL partner (a nice lady) agreed to allow me to "be frisky." Many bids like that made in this event were made, and we ended up tied for first overall.

Were these rewards signs of excellent play? No. But, it does take some talent to pull off these things. I know few who have pulled off this sort of thing as often and as consistently. I would not try this in that event, however, for JUSTIFIED FEAR of never being invited again. But, I see nothing unsportsmanlike.

I do see lots wrong with the comments afterwards. I frankly would not care if the Germans yelled out vulgarities and stormed away. This is tense play. But, what happened was nothing but proper, IMO.

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Oct 15 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 15 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

As for "intentionally overbidding" uh Roland, they were down a ton with not much time left, of course they would intentionally overbid and hope it works! Do you have some example of a bid they made that you think should be punishable?

You must have missed mrdct's post ...

Board 24: This one I have to say was pretty suspect in terms of the allegation of the Germans deliberately throwing imps. At Nil Vul after a first seat 3♠ opening, Wladow chose to double holding Kxx Axxx AQTx Jx which is neither here nor there, but after LHO bid 4♠ and it came back to him he doubled again! The opps then redoubled to play, Elinescu ran to 5♣ and Wladow sat that doubled which went for 1400 and 14 imps. Elinescu could have easily saved one trick and only gone for 1100.

Bad as the second double is, I don't think it's even CLOSE to punishable. It will usually lose badly, but could easily lead to good things and is simply a bad attempt at swinging.

Yeah it just looks like a bad double in a late night BBO match 20 IMPs down with 2 boards to go.
If we punish everyone who plays badly knowing he is 100+ IMPs down with 9 boards to go...