[Walddk]

To my ears Michael and Stefan make it sound as if I am anti-German. I am not; I have a perfectly normal relationship to our southern neighbours. We have several excellent German commentators on the panel - Michael Gromöller included - and I am all for having German commentary whenever possible.

My error in this case was that I trusted usually reliable sources at the venue immediately after the "incident" took place. My judgement was wrong; I should have waited until I had all facts before me, preferably from the players themselves.

In this context I would like to add that Tom Townsend from the England team messaged me later to tell that the German players had done nothing wrong. I will obviously take his and Michael's words for it.

I am sorry that I have caused an issue that seems out of proportion after the facts hit the table, so I hereby express my sincere apologies to the German team.

Tomorrow I will be happy to announce that the withdrawal happened in a cordial atmosphere with the approval of the chief tournament director. I will even wait until we reach the third session of the day when most people are online during our broadcast.

Roland

.....

And here a translation into German:

Für mich klingt es so, als brächten Michael und Stefan zum Ausdruck, ich sei gegen die Deutschen. Das bin ich nicht; ich habe eine vollkommen normale Beziehung zu unseren südlichen Nachbarn. Wir haben mehrere exzellente deutsche Kommentatoren im Gremium - Michael Gromöller eingeschlossen - und ich bin total dafür, Deutsche Kommentare zu haben, wann immer es möglich ist.

Mein Fehler in diesem Fall war, daß ich Quellen am Austragungsort, die normalerweise vertrauenswürdig sind, direkt nach dem "Vorfall" vertraut habe. Meine Beurteilung war falsch; ich hätte warten sollen, bis ich alle Fakten - vorzugsweise von den Spielern selber - vorliegen hatte.

In diesem Zusammenhang möchte ich gerne hinzufügen, daß Tom Townsend, Mitglied des Teams aus England, mir später eine Nachricht geschickt hat, um mir zu sagen, daß die Deutschen Spieler nichts Falsches getan haben. Selbstverständlich vertraue ich seinen und Michael Gromöller's Worten.

Es tut mir Leid, daß ich ein Problem verursacht habe, das nun, wo die Fakten auf dem Tisch liegen, unverhältnismäßig erscheint, und so bringe ich hiermit meine aufrichtige Entschuldigung dem deutschen Team gegenüber zum Ausdruck.

Morgen werde ich gerne bekannt geben, dass die vorzeitige Aufgabe in einer herzlichen Atmosphäre mit Genehmigung des Haupt-Turnierleiters stattgefunden hat. Ich werde sogar bis zum dritten Durchgang des Tages warten, wenn die meisten Leute während unserer Übertragung online sind.

Roland

[filliso]

As far as I know, if a pair is walking out in the middle of a club tournament, they have been disqualifed. The same should be done with the Germans in the Beijing games. We cannot be srtict in a nromal duplicat game and tolerant in the top world competition.

[roaldo]

i think its good the facts in this chase came on the table. All have to go into themself and hopefully learn that it's better to judge a chase when you have all facts instead of just roomers. So i look forwared to a good semifinal between Norway and Germay.
Roaldo

[sceptic]

Quote

nobody of this forum was there...nobody knows the facts....and all are discussing here without seeing what happened!

I object to Blade bringing facts into the forums, that is not normally what happens here

[Jeschiwa]

Hallo Roland,

ich danke Dir, dass Du Deinen Kommentar nochmal in deutsch verfasst hast.

Gruß, Sandra

[mrdct]

The fact that the Tournament Director agreed to the concession mid-session casts a completely different light on this incident and it would obviously be impossible for the WBF to take any action against Elinescu-Wladow in that circumstance.

It may be a different story for the German Federation as it was reported (albeit unconfirmed) that the German npc, who apparently couldn't be located at the time of the concession, later sought to have the match restarted. There would appear to be some view amongst the German officialdom that it was inappropriate to "give-up" mid-session, so it will be interesting to see how that pans out.

In fairness to posters to this thread who were calling for blood, it would not have occurred to them, and certainly didn't occur to me, that a Tournament Director would ever agree to a concession in the middle of a session. Perhaps the lynch mob can start targeting the TD!

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment. Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started. This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

[keylime]

I admit, I agree with hrothgar's rationale here.

[Walddk]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment. Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started. This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

Perhaps it is not such a bad idea, in vugraphed matches where the running score is known, that the NPC has the option of throwing in the towel if he thinks his team has had enough. Just like he does on occasion in the boxing ring.

"Sorry guys, you are groggy, let's call it a day."

Roland

[Aberlour10]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 05:11 PM, said:

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment.  Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started.  This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

Perhaps it is not such a bad idea, in vugraphed matches where the running score is known, that the NPC has the option of throwing in the towel if he thinks his team has had enough. Just like he does on occasion in the boxing ring.

"Sorry guys, you are groggy, let's call it a day."

Roland

I agree, it would work good, especially in cases like this one. It was a very long tournament, both teams are surely very tired, both teams have a long important match next day, why should they spend at the table another +1 hour for these irrelevant 8 boards.

Robert

[bidule4]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment.  Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started.  This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

unsporting ?

more sporting to give-up after 80 boards than after 88 ?

anybody blames norway ?

[jdonn]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment. Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started. This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

I completely fail to see why this should be the case. What exactly is accomplished by miserable frustrated players finishing a session in which they are getting clobbered if they don't want to be playing? Besides they had a bronze medal match the next day, they are tiring themselves out and hurting their own chances at a medal!

[NickRW]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

Quite incredibly, after going for 1100, 1400 and 1400 on consecutive boards, the Germans abandoned their semi-final versus England mid-segment. I have never seen such poor sportsmanship in bridge. What should the penalty be?

Well, I'm English and I wasn't at all unhappy about the Germans throwing in the towel. They had got themselves into a situation that was hopeless - why prolong anyone's misery. In chess you can resign - why not in bridge. So the question seems silly to me - if anything they should be commended for common sense.

Nick

[NickRW]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them?  For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. This is hardly "ethical behaviour", and there is a section where it reads that players must behave ethically correctly at all times.

Feel free to think that this behaviour is ethical. I don't think it is.

Roland

Now thats a serious charge. I am not a lawyer - but that seems to be bordering on libel - and, if the allegation is true, something that their home NBO should consider a disciplinary matter.

Unfortunately I stayed up way late to see the 4th session and then went to bed - so I didn't see what happened. What is the evidence that they deliberately threw the match rather than they were swinging to try to catch up?

Nick

[NickRW]

david_c, on Oct 15 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic.

I was watching, and no, I don't agree. Yes, he made a string of highly anti-percentage calls. If that's the way he wants to try and get back the 60-IMP deficit, I don't have a problem with it. It just so happened that each one got severely punished. And maybe he was "on tilt" at the end, but that's not the same as losing your temper.

I don't have any problem with the concession, so long as it was done graciously. Shake hands and congratulate your opponents - that's fine. If they stormed out, that would be different.

It may be that there is a rule against it. But even if so, I do not think that a severe punishment is needed.

Well, I wasn't watching - but that is what it looks like in the results to me too.

IMO Roland's post, personal opinion or not, is inflamatory and, though I'm still catching up with this thread, I've yet to read any hard evidence in favour of his allegation.

Nick

[NickRW]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

The trouble with Entscho Wladow is that he has a record, a bad one, and he has been suepended before. Guess why?

Yes, maybe. But even if that is so, then he presumably served out the time of whatever punishment was considered appropriate and should be considered as having paid his debt. To use his past record against him is not evidence that the behaviour was in fact repeated - each case has to be judged on its merits - and you're using a public forum to try the man behind his back. That is completely not OK and you should knock it off.

Nick

[dburn]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. To draw an analogy with another mind sport: you can resign in the middle of a chess game, can you not? No one would cast doubts on your sportsmanship for so doing, would they?

Obviously you should not walk out in the middle of a pairs event or a multiple teams event simply because you are not doing terribly well - you do have a duty not to sabotage the movement (and, some might say, a duty to the field not to generate horribly abnormal results just because you are out of contention).

But conceding in a head-to-head match, however or whenever you do it, does not seem to me objectionable. Of course, if your team-mates were plus a hundred IMPs on the half of the match they had played at the other table, they might have a few words to say. But that is a matter for you and for them, not for the rest of the world.

From what I can gather from the England players involved, no disrespect was shown by the German players at any stage either to their opponents or to the officials. They simply said, as the great boxer Roberto Duran is memorably alleged to have said, "No more. No more." The WBF Chief Tournament Director saw nothing illegal or even unsporting in the manner of the concession. It really isn't for the likes of us to condemn or to criticise what was in effect a battlefield decision to surrender in utterly hopeless circumstances.

I hope that the German players will give as good an account of themselves as they can in their third-place match against Norway, and I join with others here in congratulating them warmly on their achievements both in Beijing and at the European Championships in Pau.

I also hope that on BBO, we can listen to and respect the opinions of others without denouncing them for holding those opinions. Whereas, as I have remarked above, I personally don't see anything wrong with conceding any head-to-head match at any stage, others might feel more strongly that there is something wrong with so doing. Freedom of speech is the birthright of each, but words like "shame" and "disgrace" have no place in discussions about what is, after all, only a game. A bridge match that would have ended in a victory for England anyway ended in a victory for England earlier than it might have done. No one died.

[NickRW]

Blade, on Oct 15 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

Hallo all,

I am a member of the german team here in Bejing.

ciao
Michael Gromoeller
proud member of German Open team !

Yes. Very well done. I thought you ran us close and congratulate you on a very good performance in Bejing.

Pity about this silly thread. I apologise on behalf of the people on here who post without thinking what it is they are saying.

Nick
A person no way on the England team - but an Englishman all the same.

[NickRW]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

I am sorry that I have caused an issue that seems out of proportion after the facts hit the table, so I hereby express my sincere apologies to the German team.

Yuh - glad to see the apology. But you shouldn't have shot your mouth off in the first place.

Nick

[mrdct]

bidule4, on Oct 15 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I remain of the view that it is unsporting to give-up in the middle of a segment.  Swing from the trees if you like, but finish what you started.  This is what we teach our children and elite sportsman like Elinescu-Wladow should lead by example.

unsporting ?

more sporting to give-up after 80 boards than after 88 ?

anybody blames norway ?

The big difference is that there is an established precedent for knock-out matches with seemingly insurmountable leads to be conceded with a segment remaining. This is a normal part of major tournament bridge.

If a match is going to be conceded the appropriate time to do it is during a scheduled break between segments where the team can confer with its captain, tournament officials can be advised and broadcasters can be advised.

I am not aware of any examples where a match in a major championship has been conceded in the middle of a segment. It was for that reason that I found this incident so shocking.

Obviously with new information emerging that the Tournament Director acquiesced to the concession and that one or both of Elinescu and Wladow may not have been in a fit physical or mental state to continue, the incident is less shocking and perhaps even understandable or reasonable. However, I would hate to see the situation where mid-segment concessions become a regular feature of our sport because I don't think that is what our sport is about.

If you sit down to play a session of bridge, regardless of how poorly things are going you have an obligation to complete that session.

[655321]

NickRW, on Oct 15 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

I am sorry that I have caused an issue that seems out of proportion after the facts hit the table, so I hereby express my sincere apologies to the German team.

Yuh - glad to see the apology. But you shouldn't have shot your mouth off in the first place.

Nick

At least your 6 posts in this thread have taught Roland a sharp lesson for daring to criticize a weak NT with 4cM.