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Wolff over 1x-1y-2NT

#1 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 14:27

If we are playing Wolff over 1x-1y-2NT, what is "standard" for all of responder's second bids and followups by both players?
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 14:31

Second bids:

3C = drop in diamonds, hearts or spades or a slam try in clubs.
3D, 3H, 3S = forcing.

Follow ups are natural except that 4C by either player is always Gerber.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 15:25

I've no idea (as ever) what Standard is, but I play this in one partnership only, and partner told me that after 1m - 1M - 2NT

3C = sign off in 'any' suit or slam try in partner's minor
3D = check back (3-card major suit support, 4 cards in an unbid major, see below for follow-ups)
3 own major = 6-card suit
3 other major = canape slam try in other minor
4 suit below own major = auto-splinter

We've discussed the various sequences starting 1m - 1M - 2NT - 3D to know where responder is offering choice of games and where he is trying to get opener playing the other major, but I don't think this is standard

(e.g.
1C - 1H - 2NT - 3D
3H - 3NT is choice of games with an 8-card heart fit, responder bids 3S with 4-4 in the majors; but it's also playable that 3H - 3NT shows 4-5 in the majors and ...3H - 3S is choice of games with 5 hearts only.)
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-24, 16:08

Frances how is your system playable if you are 5-5 or 5-6 in the majors?

I have played similar to Frances but always play 3 of the other major as natural, with slam tries in the other minor bidding 3C then 3N, slam tries in openers minor bidding 3C then 3 of the other major.
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#5 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 16:26

han, on Mar 24 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

Second bids:

3C = drop in diamonds, hearts or spades or a slam try in clubs.
3D, 3H, 3S = forcing.

Follow ups are natural except that 4C by either player is always Gerber.

Han, maybe you should slightly consider smileys after your jokes? All regulars here know that we can't expect a completely serious post from you, of course. But what about anyone else dropping by? :)
Kind regards,
Harald
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 16:52

I'm ok with anybody who doesn't know me thinking that I'm an idiot, no problem. I only hope that potential partners don't think so.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 17:22

han, on Mar 24 2008, 05:52 PM, said:

I'm ok with anybody who doesn't know me thinking that I'm an idiot, no problem. I only hope that potential partners don't think so.

always a danger that someone who knows you will think you're an idiot :)
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#8 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 17:38

Or an idiot may think he knows me, all can happen.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#9 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 18:12

han, on Mar 24 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

Or an idiot may think he knows me, all can happen.

you sank my battleship...
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#10 User is offline   jkdood 

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Posted 2008-March-24, 21:19

"EXTENDED Wolff SIGNOFF"
I was taught this long ago, and have played for a LONG time this 3-level structure by responder:

3C is a relay to 3D to sign-off in responder's first suit, OR to make a slam try in a minor... THEN responder's 3NT (higher) rebid is always the slam-try for diamonds (higher minor) the other "unused" (lower) bid is a club slam-try.

Ex: 1C-1S-2N-3C->3D-3H is a slam try for clubs (3N would be for diamonds, 3S would be a signoff.)

(The slam try in a minor can be support for opener's minor, or responder's own longish suit.)

Yes, after 1C-1D-2N-etc; there may be an unused bid available.

Responder's 3D bid after opener's 2N rebid is always checkback for a major. If opener shows a fit for one of the majors, and responder now bids 3NT, opener can safely assume (with the proper fitting hand) that the other major is of interest to responder for the partnership.

Ex: Opener has Axx Axxx KQJx Ax and rebids 2N after 1D-1S. Opener then bids 3H after hearing responder rebid 3D. If responder now bids 3N, he must have 5 spades, so opener can safely correct 3N to 4S (or inferentially, show slammish values for a spade slam, with a 4-level cuebid.

After 1m-1M-2N, I was taught that 3 of the Other Major by responder, could be one of two hands, by partnership agreement:
1) exactly 4 of the major being bid
2) 5 of the major being bid, promising a 5-5 or better hand

I have always preferred version (2), since 3D-checkback seems to work fine for hand types (1). However, in my experience, more partnerships seems to agree the other way.

Lastly, after 1m, 1M, 2N, 3M ("same major", example 1D-1S-2N-3S) this shows 6+ length and is at least mildly slammish.
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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-25, 04:16

I guess jkdood and I play almost the same thing. Actually it might well have been jkdood who taught this to me. Thanks M.
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#12 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2008-March-25, 08:26

I was reading Hardy's version of Wolff, which upon further inspection seems to have a few differences from what has been mentioned here.

1m-1M-2N:

3 asks opener to bid 3M with 3 card support, or else 3. Cheapest new suit bids (and pass) are weak signoffs, specifically including 3OM as a weak hand with both majors (say 5-5). This also plays a 4-3 fit opposite a weak hand with a 4M and a long minor which seems unclear to be a good thing. He does include the 3...3N option as specifically a club slam try.

He doesn't mention showing diamond slam tries, but I guess with longer diamonds you'll start 1-1 while with an equal or longer major (and also diamonds) you'll use 1-1M-2N-3(checkback)...4.
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-25, 08:53

What I was taught was similar to JK, but reverse:

After 2N--> 3 --> 3

3Major = signoff
3 other major = slam try in other minor (diamonds - 5-5 probably)
3N = mild slam try in opener's minor
4 = real slam try in clubs
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2008-March-26, 10:11

EHAA version of Wolff - very needed because 1x-1y-2NT has such a low minimum because of the rest of the system - is:

3C: starts a signoff sequence, unless 3NT afterward, in which case it's a mild slam try in clubs.
Opener MAY NOT go past the cheapest suit bid by the partnership. Apart from that, opener may bid a lower suit, provided if responder had made a preference ask between that and the cheapest suit, she would take that preference.

so: 1C-1H; 2NT-3C; opener bids 3D if he would prefer 3D to 3H if responder has both red suits, otherwise 3H is forced;
1C-1S; 2NT-3C; Opener bids 3D if he would prefer 3D to 3S; 3H if he would prefer 3H to 3S, but would prefer 3S to 3D; otherwise 3S, but;
1D-1S; 2NT-3C; opener's 3D is forced.

Responder's further calls are P/C based on the above philosophy, again, of course, with the exception that 1x-1y; 2NT-3C; 3z-3NT is a GF, mild slam try, club raise.
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-March-26, 10:45

I thought 3 as checkback is part of Wolff sign-off (so that e.g. 1D 1S 2N 3S sets trumps).
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#16 User is offline   jkdood 

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Posted 2008-March-27, 13:19

Cherdano is CORRECT, the Wolff "Signoff" (with or without extensions) largely distinguishes between 3S "to play" and 3S forcing (And in a Texas-sense, mildly slammish)

Back in the day (ahem) One did not respond 1S with Jxxxxx Jxx x xxx to partner's 1D opening, even vul. Then I guess experience showed 1S works out better, but having a way to get out (sign off) in 3S also showed its merit.

..just an M here..
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