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How did you become an expert Coach? By yourself?

Poll: How did you do it? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

How did you do it?

  1. Working intensively under a coach (1 votes [3.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.23%

  2. Received some guidance under a coach (3 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  3. A bit of coaching here and there, but mainly self-learning (12 votes [38.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.71%

  4. Self-learn from books, etc. (15 votes [48.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.39%

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#1 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 09:15

As Above. Just wondering how experts really train in various countries.
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Unless explicitly stated, none of my views here can be taken to represent SCBA or any other organizations.
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#2 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 09:29

By playing with stronger partners, discussing hands with them AND LISTENING TO THEM. In my case, especially Alexander Smirnov (Smirny).
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 10:00

Playing with good players is certainly helpful but in the end it has to come from yourself. I think this is true for any subject that you want to learn, a depressing thought for a teacher.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 10:02

While I don't really consider myself an expert yet (Despite my self-ranking on BBO, but I'd say I'm better than at least 3/4s of BBO "experts"), I think the single biggest thing that has helped me to really increase my level of play is to play AGAINST the best opponents I can find. A year ago, in a regional KO I would usually play around bracket 5 or 6 (out of 8 or so). The last two tournaments I've been in nothing below bracket 2, with some bracket 1 play, especially in compacts. This brings you up against pro teams, real star/WC players, etc. This really focuses your technique, you learn not to make bad bids, learn to declare against consistently best defense, etc.
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 10:07

Bridge requires an immense amount of self-study. Coaching is helpful for solving disputes between partners, or to have someone to bounce ideas off of, but it's not the primary path to learning.
"Phil" on BBO
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#6 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 10:54

There is a lot of research on how people learn, and people learn in different ways - for some self-study is better, for others structured lessons, for others yet other methods.

For me personally, a combination of reading ('self-study') and playing with, and discussing hands with, better players. This also includes discussing what I have read with people. I would say (as a gross generalisation) that

- my declarer play has benefited most from reading books on declarer play
- my bidding has benefitted most originally from being told how to bid by better players
- my high-level bidding judgement is (slowly) improving with experience/practice and watching top players. Nothing else can really teach that.
- my defence has benefitted most from discussing particular hands with friends/partners

(but obviously there is a lot of overlap)

Personally I was hugely lucky to be learn how to play as part of a university bridge club with a few pretty good players around who were happy to play rubber all night and give advice to help me improve.

By the way, your topic title is 'how did you become an expert' while your post asks how experts train. I'm not trying to be picky, but the two are different. To become good from less good requires replacing ignorance with knowledge; technical training can give a lot of this. To train/improve as an expert requires improving judgement, stamina, partnership understanding... and I think is better served by frequent high-standard games and useful post-match discussions.

Quote

By playing with stronger partners, discussing hands with them AND LISTENING TO THEM. In my case, especially...

I married one of them
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#7 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 11:18

Learning at a very young age, playing a lot the first 10+ years, discussing a lot - both bidding and play. Reading books, magazines and bridge coloumns. And playing up whenever possible.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#8 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 11:33

You left out

* play a ton of hands; then analyze them

Online bridge is excellent for this.
"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well." -- Tarrasch
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 12:12

I really liked Frances' post, and Harald's. Both rang true with me.

I would add that, at least for me, self-study takes you only so far. It is great for card play. Reading Love on Squeezes, or Master Play or almost any Kelsey book can help that area of the game.

But no book on bidding can really help there, after you reach a certain level. Most bidding books are about system, and bidding is far more about valuation and judgment. There are exceptions, but those books (the ones I've read) will help you become an advanced player or a near-expert, but they are usually aimed somewhat low. The Bridge World is a notable exception: their test your declarer play or defence are far stronger than most publications' versions.

Almost by definition, you can't improve your judgment by self study.. you are limited in your self-analysis by the ignorance that you are trying to overcome.

Always try to play with a player stronger than yourself... obviously this is impossible for most of us since I know of no good bridge player with an inferiority complex :P It's not a game for the weak-ego'd.

It isn't realistic to expect that many of us can ask a better player to become a regular partner... he or she also wants to play with someone at least as good as he or she is.. but most good players will gladly play occasionally with friends who are trying to improve, especially if the friend shows promise. And every good player I have ever met is always happy to talk about the game. And getting together with a group of good players and discussing the hands is a tremendous opportunity so long as one doesn't approach this as merely an opportunity to show off one's good results B)
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#10 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 12:27

mikeh, on Mar 3 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

Almost by definition, you can't improve your judgment by self study.. you are limited in your self-analysis by the ignorance that you are trying to overcome.

I wouldn't say self-study is limited to dealing cards and analyzing DD problems.

I think a great way to improve judgment is by reading Master Solver's in old BW's which I know both you and I do on a regular basis.
"Phil" on BBO
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#11 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 12:28

I think Frances generally has it right. Declarer play can be learned from books or other materials like Bridge Master, but bidding and judgment can really only be mastered by experience. Having players better than you criticize your bidding (and taking them seriously) and thinking about past bad results is a good way to identify patterns in your mistakes so you can avoid them in the future.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 12:37

pclayton, on Mar 3 2008, 01:27 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 3 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

Almost by definition, you can't improve your judgment by self study.. you are limited in your self-analysis by the ignorance that you are trying to overcome.

I wouldn't say self-study is limited to dealing cards and analyzing DD problems.

I think a great way to improve judgment is by reading Master Solver's in old BW's which I know both you and I do on a regular basis.

I didn't mean to suggest that self-study helped ONLY in card play... but I do think that, with few exceptions, there are few self-study resources that will help you to progress, in terms of bidding and judgement, beyond advanced if that is your primary source of information. I would go further... for NA players, I don't think there is any source of information that will really help put one over the top, in terms of learning to think as an expert in bidding, other than the BW MSC.. which I read and reread (I have decades of them :P ) constantly.

Even, and perhaps mostly, the thoughts of people with whom I disagree.... understanding WHY I disagree or why I prefer someone else's arguments is a great way to learn. You don't get that type of discussion in most books, even by writers as even-handed as Lawrence. You do get it by playing with and talking to better players at the bar B)
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 12:40

mikeh, on Mar 3 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

You don't get that type of discussion in most books, even by writers as even-handed as Lawrence. You do get it by playing with and talking to better players at the bar B)

Don't forget to buy the drinks either :P
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 13:42

The technical stuff you can read from books, solving problems and playing a lot. I never listened much to other good players on these subjects because what they say often has too much bias. For some reason, it is particularly hard for bridge players to stay neutral.

The human aspect is harder to learn and that's where coaching can help. Learning to have a positive, competitive attitude is easier with guidance.
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#15 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-March-03, 13:43

#1) Reading a lot.
#2) Talking about stuff with good players.
#3) Playing a lot.

Once you hit a certain point #2 will take you to the next level, but if you are not already very good then it will be #1 and #3 more than #2.
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#16 User is offline   sathyab 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 14:29

I wonder if someone could elaborate on improving your bidding judgement. I find that the hardest part of the game and the one area where there's a lot less consensus than the aspects of play and defense. I don't know if there's any other intellectual (and supposedly objective) pusuit where two experts in a field can hold two nearly-equally-valid opinions and yet be almost mutually exclusive on a given problem. I have seen this way too often, be it BW panels, team games, multi-team games or commentaries from experts commentating on expert games, to be persuaded otherwise. What complicates matterrs even more is the fact that what an expert tells you in print is quite different from how they react in real-life. Electronic bridge is a lot more helpful in this regard as you can actually see how experts dealt with the matter at the table.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..."
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 15:00

sathyab, on Mar 3 2008, 03:29 PM, said:

I wonder if someone could elaborate on improving your bidding judgement. I find that the hardest part of the game and the one area where there's a lot less consensus than the aspects of play and defense. I don't know if there's any other intellectual (and supposedly objective) pusuit where two experts in a field can hold two nearly-equally-valid opinions and yet be almost mutually exclusive on a given problem. I have seen this way too often, be it BW panels, team games, multi-team games or commentaries from experts commentating on expert games, to be persuaded otherwise. What complicates matterrs even more is the fact that what an expert tells you in print is quite different from how they react in real-life. Electronic bridge is a lot more helpful in this regard as you can actually see how experts dealt with the matter at the table.

All you can do is to play, play and play in the toughest fields around. And try to identify auctions where you either got a bad result or should have got a bad result... the latter are the most dangerous, because you may have got a top or a huge swing because the opps screwed up. It is human nature to 'learn' that the action you got away with was 'good', because it won. But do that in good competition and you might have been killed. The better the opps, the more likely it is that you didn't get away with something, but the reality is that most of us are usually playing against baby seals, not killer whales. This is why, I think, every club I have ever known has local guns who are non-expert but do very well in the Wednesday afternoon game. Their bad habits work well in weak fields, but these players never win a regional, etc.

In terms of the contradictions in expert opinions, I don't think it is quite as bad as you make it sound. Generally the experts will each recognize that the other school has some merit. And my suspicion is that in most cases, experts will agree that the 'other' choice is probably ok if it is consistent with partnership philosophy.

Playing can and should be supplemented by discussion, including argument. While all of us have egos, and putting our egos aside can be tough, the ability to do so in bridge argument is essential.

If you play in an area in which there are no really good players, or they don't play where you do, then watching online can help, as can reading good publications such as the Bridge World.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#18 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 15:08

I had a WM in home since I started to play.

Also I had a polish expert who played with sponsors and spent a lot of time giving real examples of what not to do.

Nothing of that would be of any use if I didn't practice a lot.
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#19 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 15:15

I was born.

Oh wait, we're talking about bridge?
Kevin Fay
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#20 User is offline   finally17 

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Posted 2008-March-03, 18:23

I am not an expert at all on the matter of bridge, but it strikes me that skaeran perhaps inadvertently said the most important thing that's been noted: "playing a lot the first 10+ years." Obviously there are exceptional people, but in general, real expert status in any field requires time more than anything. You need experience (play), you need to learn from other people (discussion and book learning), you need to surround yourself with others of quality (more about discussion, and opposition, and generally just a good quality club to be at week in and week out), but you can have the best of all of these and you still need time coupled with patience.

I recall long ago reading about a study done on the more general question of "what it means to be an expert, and what experts have in common" and one of the conclusions that was reached is that, almost regardless of field or person, about 10 years of applying yourself to the study is required for the human mind to reach a state of "expertise," and such varied things as chess master, violinist, medical doctor, and academic were all considered.

Different people learn in different ways, but regardless of how you learn best (personal study, quantity of play, quality of discussion), it's going to take time and patience.

Not a criticism of the particular person who said it at all (don't know TylerE from Adam), but as an aside, it strikes me that the below is one of the bigger problems with the self-ranking system: inflation due to the perceived ability of others who are ranking themselves at this level.

Quote

(Despite my self-ranking on BBO, but  I'd say I'm better than at least 3/4s of BBO "experts")

I constantly try and "Esc-wq!" to finish and post webforum replies.

Aaron
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