[fred]

cherdano, on Oct 15 2007, 02:45 AM, said:

Fred, you are being unfair to Jon in the heat of the battle here. He didn't say he wouldn't take it as a privilege to play with stronger players, and also he wasn't talking about himself, just what he suspected about world class players.
Anyway, are you really so sure the Rodwells and Versaces take it as such a big privilege to "represent their country" every single time?

I am sure about Rodwell. He has been my friend for over 20 years.

I do not know Versace very well personally, but I get the strong sense that he (rightly!) takes a great deal of pride in representing Italy (every single time). I would be very surprised if he or any of his current teammates said that, for them, it was not a privilege to represent their country in the World Championships (every single time).

I realize Rodwell and Versace were just random names, but as I said before I think that almost all players who reach this level would feel the same way regardless of which country they come from, how they feel about their countries, and whether or not they are professional players.

For those international players who feel differently, I would expect most would be smart enough to keep this to themselves. A quick glance at the posts made in this thread by those who have played intentionally is further indication that I might actually be right about this (yes I know the sample is small and biased).

Was I unfair to Jon? He was the one who asserted that "it is not a privilege to play for your country in the World Championships" even though this is something he has never experienced himself. He did not include "IMO" or "for me".

Like Mrdct and Walddk who say so explicitly and like Hedyg and other posters who I think I can safely infer feels the same way, some of the proudest moments of my life came when I was representing my country (countries actually in my case).

It has without a doubt been a privilege and an honor for me to have had a chance to do this.

I wrote the post in question because I met Jon at a recent ACBL Nationals. I liked him and, as a result of playing a lot of boards against him, my impression was that he has potential and ambitions as a player.

Other posters with zero bridge credentials as far as I am aware of have made similarly ignorant remarks in this thread. They did not receive any free advice posts from me. If anything it is a compliment to Jon that I care enough to try to save him future pain and frustration. It would have been a lot easier for me to conclude "what an ignorant jerk" and go on reading the next post.

Believe it or not, I was trying to do Jon a favor by saving him from learning an important lesson the hard way (that speaking with an air of authority about subjects you know nothing about is not a good way to make friends and influence people in the bridge world).

Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to use e-mail, but I was also was trying to make a point that is relevant to this discussion:

It is a privilege to play for your country in the World Championships.

I believe that this particular point neeeded to be stated by someone who knows from personal experience that it is true.

Anyways sorry if I ruffled any feathers out there.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[sceptic]

I may as well add my two pence worth

The women in question are either all guilty of bad judgement or one of them has made a collective statement and the others were not aware of it, in which case, she is an a*****e for doing it.

So lets assume they are all in on this statement

I just think that when you consider this act, any normal rational person would just think, why did they do it, what will they gain from it and doesn't it make them look stupid for doing it at a prestigious event where bridge is the main issue not childish political statements.

anyone that does not like my view can go f*** emselves, beacause that is about what the ladies seem to be saying to the bridge world

[geller]

I agree the victory banquet was an inappropriate place for a political statement but I also think as much as we all like bridge we are human beings first of all and if we see evil being done we should speak out against it in an appropriate forum.

-Bob

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I think there might possibly be another perspective that noone has touched on with the possible exception of this:

mrdct, on Oct 14 2007, 11:27 PM, said:

Now here is the previously unreported bit:  on the audio of the video one can clearly hear male voices vigourously cheering, laughing and egging-on the ladies on stage.  You can hear a few "yeah"s and "ha ha ha ha"s.  I suspect that those voices weren't the Chinese waiters serving refreshments.

Given the current world views on our current president, I am almost certain that the ladies had taken a lot of "jabbing", "joking", "ribbing", "your president this", "your president that" comments throughout the course of the 10-14 days they were there. A lot of the non-USA posters here on BBO frequently do the same thing by making assumptions that just because one resides in the USA that we somehow condone or agree with the actions of GWB.

The ladies had probably spent the whole tournament stating "We didn't vote for Bush" in response to people deriding his actions or attempting to defend themselves from what I will call "sentimental attacks" on the actions of the USA. Possibly even to the point where anytime the subject was mentioned, the canned response became "We didn't vote for Bush".

Given this statement by mrdct, I suspect the sign display was done more as a joke amongst the players than it was done as a direct protest against the current president. At least, I hope so.

I think it was an inappropriate thing to do but if it was done as a good natured joke amongst friends/competitors, I am somewhat more willing to condone it.

[Walddk]

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 04:30 PM, said:

Like Mrdct and Walddk who say so explicitly and like Hedyg and other posters who I think I can safely infer feels the same way, some of the proudest moments of my life came when I was representing my country (countries actually in my case).

We haven't yet heard from cascade, ulven, jlall and jdonn, but, like fred, I would be very surprised if they don't see it as a privilege and honour to play for their countries. Apologies if I forgot some BBF members.

Call me sentimental, but I actually shed a tear or two when I, many many years ago, represented Denmark and listened to "Der er et yndigt land" (Danish national anthem). It was one of the proudest moments of my life.

Anker Jørgensen (social democrat) was the prime minister then. I didn't vote for him. Don't know what my team-mates did, but it never crossed our minds to tell the audience at a bridge tournament.

You get much more publicity today than you did then. Perhaps some people should bear that in mind before they do something they might regret later. As far as I'm concerned, I prefer to stick to the slogan you see a couple of centimeters below this post.

Fred is roughly 20 years younger than me, but I know him well know to say that he subscribes to the same words.

Roland

[hrothgar]

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 05:30 PM, said:

For those international players who feel differently, I would expect most would be smart enough to keep this to themselves. A quick glance at the posts made in this thread by those who have played intentionally is further indication that I might actually be right about this (yes I know the sample is small and biased).

...

Like Mrdct and Walddk who say so explicitly and like Hedyg and other posters who I think I can safely infer feels the same way, some of the proudest moments of my life came when I was representing my country (countries actually in my case).

...

Other posters with zero bridge credentials as far as I am aware of have made similarly ignorant remarks in this thread.

Hi Fred:

Would you mind commenting once again just why you moved from Canada to the United States? I seem to recall that your personal desire to win a World Championship ended up trumping your patriotic desire to represent Canada.

Regardless, as you point out, I have zero bridge credentials... Maybe I shouldn't be commenting on these types of issues. Then again, some might argue that if the selection committee is using issues like patriotism to determine who gets to play on USA1 or USA2 then players with real bridge credentials can't really comment on these sorts of issues safely. For all we know, Justin's comments on this thread might not reflect his actual beliefs, but rather are an attempt to signal that he can be trusted to toe the line when necessary...

(BTW, I am using Justin as a hypothetical example because I don't think that he'd hold it against me. I have no reason to believe that his true beliefs are anything different that what he has stated openly)

[han]

With the risk of being perceived as an arrogant jerk:

mrdct, on Oct 15 2007, 07:09 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 15 2007, 05:58 AM, said:

I thought that one of the fundamental lessons of World War II is that individual citizens have a duty to raise objections and try to change the course of their government.  In much the same manner, members of the military don't get to use "following orders" as a defense.

If individuals feel that they are in a position to try to make a difference, they should do so...

I couldn't agree more, except:

- Not on the sporting field.
- Not when you are representing your country in international competition.

I agree with you that it is not styleful, but if you think the times are desperate enough, then why not?

To continue the comparison with Hitler-Germany (which I don't think is valid btw), do you expect the German athletes of those days to sing along their anthem with their hand on their heart? I bet we would applaud the athlete who had the courage not to do so in those days, even more so because they were probably risking their lives.

One could argue that such a player should not play for their national team. That is a reasonable view but I disagree. I think one can play in the world championships, be proud of their country but still feel ashamed of their government.

Apparently these women felt strongly enough about this that they decided to do this. It is very rare that a great sportsperson uses their exposure for a worthwhile cause, but it does happen (remember the "free Nelson Mandela" days?).

Finally, I don't think one has to be a world class bridge player to post their views in this thread. I think this thread has been quite civil, and some of the views of non-expert bridge players have been worth reading. In my opinion.

[junyi_zhu]

mike777, on Oct 14 2007, 03:44 AM, said:

Interestingly I saw no Chinese team show a poster saying they did not vote for Hu, President of China.

Given all the Chinese teams playing, you would think at least one of them voted for the other guy/gal.

We don't have a direct voting system to vote for the chairman in China. The current chairman, Hu, was nominated by Deng. So it's quite different in China.
And Hu has no opponents who can challenge his chairmanship so far. The next one will most likely be nominated by him as well. That's why some said China has no democracy, which might not be completely true, cause we do have a voting system to vote for congressman. Also, China is the first country that developed a government employee testing system in the world, which worked well for more than 1000 years, so it's just different from western tradition IMO.

For the "we didn't vote for Bush" incident. I can fully understand the ladies of team USA1, some of them are also my good friends. I don't really think it's a very serious issue and it's just a small joke and a small political statement. It's not even an insult to anybody, cause they just said "we didn't vote for Bush", not "Bush is bad". That's my opinion, but also, some of my Chinese friends hold a similar opinion.

[ulven]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2007, 10:16 AM, said:

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 04:30 PM, said:

Like Mrdct and Walddk who say so explicitly and like Hedyg and other posters who I think I can safely infer feels the same way, some of the proudest moments of my life came when I was representing my country (countries actually in my case).

We haven't yet heard from cascade, ulven, jlall and jdonn, but, like fred, I would be very surprised if they don't see it as a privilege and honour to play for their countries. Apologies if I forgot some BBF members.

Of course I'm 100% with Fred et al on this issue.

Being on a podium and hearing the national anthem played for you and your teams' efforts is a moment to cherish and treasure. Every time.

To not be able to, or making a choice not to, pay full attention to this is surprising to put is mildly.

To use an occasion like this to make statements of this kind is something I can't understand in the context. If this was a response to teasing and jabbering from earlier during the championship, then it was a childish display of bad judgement IMO.

[fred]

hrothgar, on Oct 15 2007, 03:27 PM, said:

Would you mind commenting once again just why you moved from Canada to the United States?  I seem to recall that your personal desire to win a World Championship ended up trumping your patriotic desire to represent Canada.

One of the reasons I moved to USA was bridge-related: I thought it would improve my chances to win a World Championship. But there were other reasons that have nothing to do with bridge. For example:

- warmer weather
- lower taxes

When I say that I consider it to be an honor and a privilege to represent my country in the World Championships, for me personally that has very little to do with the country I happen to live in, its flag, its politics, or patriotism.

For me it is more about representing the bridge players from my country. Knowing that their are 1000s of people at home who have selected me to represent them, that they are cheering for me to win, etc.

I feel that I have a responsibility to these people, not only to try to play the best bridge I can, but to behave myself in such a way as to make them feel proud that I am one of their representatives.

These people have honored me by making me one of their representatives. That makes me feel honored. I am one of a privileged few to have earned such an honor. That makes me feel privileged.

For the record I do love my country (warts and all), but that doesn't really come into play here (at least for me). I am sure I would feel the same way regardless of where I happen to live.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2007, 10:16 AM, said:

We haven't yet heard from cascade, ulven, jlall and jdonn, but, like fred, I would be very surprised if they don't see it as a privilege and honour to play for their countries.

This is actually a very difficult question for me to answer. It was made more interesting by the example of Fred finding representing his non-native country to be such an honor. To touch on that first, and noting that I can't say for sure since I haven't been in that position and never will be, if I moved to another country and got to represent them in anything I don't think I would feel nearly the same sense of pride and honor. Or at least, not the same special type of pride. I just can't imagine moving to Canada (or any other country), winning the Bermuda Bowl on their team, and having the Canadian flag and national anthem bring any special feeling to me at all beyond pride for myself and my team because we had won.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Fred - I actually admire that he is able to derive his pride from another source, that of representing the bridge players in his country. I just don't think I would feel the same way, because I don't feel that way now (except as pertains to my family and personal friends back home). My greatest sense of pride and honor is personal, for what I accomplished (as well as any teammates and partners). But my sense of honor as it relates to playing for the USA is indeed derived from patriotism and love for what my country is supposed to stand for (since I hate what my country has in many ways become today).

I still haven't answered the question. I do see it as an honor and a privilege to play for my country. And that is why I applaud the women for what they had the courage to do, on behalf of what their country and mine is supposed to be.

[fred]

Hannie, on Oct 15 2007, 03:27 PM, said:

Finally, I don't think one has to be a world class bridge player to post their views in this thread. I think this thread has been quite civil, and some of the views of non-expert bridge players have been worth reading. In my opinion.

I totally agree, but when the discussion turns to "what is it like to play in the World Championships", those who have never done this should be careful to state their opinions in terms of "what I think it would be like for me". Telling those who have done this "what it was like for them" qualifies as ignorant in my view.

If the discussion had been about "is it a privilege to play in a Flight C in an ACBL Regional pairs tournament" I probably would not have commented at all since I have no idea what it is like. If I felt the need to comment for some reason, I would not have stated my opinion as if it was a fact that I could not possibly know.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[hotShot]

I have no doubt that anyone would consider it to be an honor and a privilege to represent his country in the World Championships. I agree with Fred about that. I even agree that it will be much more intense than I can even imagine.

We are human beings, citizens and a lot of other things that are more important than being a bridge player. So I think this is not about bridge, it's about respect and tolerance. These women decided to devote one of the proudest moments in their lives, the ceremony where they are honored for winning a world championship, to state that they didn't vote for GWB.
I believe that it was their moment of honor and that I should tolerate/accept/respect what they made of it.
They made more of a personal statement than a political one and even GWB can't be offended that someone choose to vote someone else.

[awm]

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 11:18 AM, said:

I feel that I have a responsibility to these people, not only to try to play the best bridge I can, but to behave myself in such a way as to make them feel proud that I am one of their representatives.

I think this quote from Fred pretty much says it all.

I'd add that I think it's reasonable for USBF (or any other similar organization) to expect its representatives to feel this way and behave accordingly, and that I would see no problem with such an organization banning individuals who have behaved in a manner which embarrasses USBF from participation/selection in subsequent team trials.

[pclayton]

In the past several days since this thread was started, the facts surrounding the matter have turned from:

1. The USA Women's team making a political statement

to

2. The USA Women's team holding up a sign as a joke intended to be a blanket statement to the audience that they do not support the Bush administration. Giggling during the national anthem has been reported as well.

Frankly, I'd have a lot more respect for the VC winners if they had used the opportunity just to send a political message. To stand on the podium and laugh doesn't exhibit any respect for their position or what they accomplished. I doubt the Chinese hosts were impressed.

I've never played in a bridge tournament for 2 weeks straight. Hell, my brain is mush after five days at a national, so I'm guessing they were very fatigued. Still, what they did really showed a lack of class.

I think its time the Women's team made a statement to the press about their actions. Maybe they don't regret a thing, or perhaps they think in retrospect they think it showed a lack of judgement. Some explanation is in order.

[cherdano]

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

If the discussion had been about "is it a privilege to play in a Flight C in an ACBL Regional pairs tournament" I probably would not have commented at all since I have no idea what it is like. If I felt the need to comment for some reason, I would not have stated my opinion as if it was a fact that I could not possibly know.

Fred, this comparison doesn't quite hold.

awm, on Oct 15 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

fred, on Oct 15 2007, 11:18 AM, said:

I feel that I have a responsibility to these people, not only to try to play the best bridge I can, but to behave myself in such a way as to make them feel proud that I am one of their representatives.

I think this quote from Fred pretty much says it all.

Whether it should be taken as a privilege to play in an ACBL flight C regional game pretty much is only a concern for yourself and your teammates. Whether it should be taken as a privilege to "represent your federation and your country" in the Bermuda Bowl should depend on the consensus of many more than just the participants.

I am member of two bridge federations. I don't feel any particular affiliation to any of the teams representing those federations at word championships (except perhaps my own personal sympathy. I don't expect the players to feel honored to represent "my federation" (and thus me in small part). I wouldn't expect anyone to assume that these teams are representative for my federations or my country, and I don't think they have any responsibility to me. Of course they were selected to play above many others who would have liked to play as well, so they do have a responsibility towards them to try and play their best bridge, and to behave ethically at the table.

Of course my position may be a minority view, but I don't think I need to begin all of my posts with "of course this is none of my business, but I would think that".

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Oct 15 2007, 10:54 PM, said:

I think its time the Women's team made a statement to the press about their actions. Maybe they don't regret a thing, or perhaps they think in retrospect they think it showed a lack of judgement. Some explanation is in order.

I don't think that any of us has a "right to know".

If I were a member of the USA1 and I thought that the USBF or the WBF was actually considering any kind of sanction, I'd be lawyering up.
Moreover, there is no way in hell that I'd be making any kind of public statement prior to consulting with said lawyer.

If I were to issue any statement, it would probably be through a lawyer.

Given the idiotic nature of the sanctions that some folks are recommending, it would be foolish in the extreme to make statements to the press.

[Fluffy]

Our press doesn't even know bridge exists, so I would be impressed if any journalist was interested on the matter. Of course USA is a different history.

[helene_t]

Until now the only reference I could find on the internet was a blogger who was proud of his mother. I hope it stays that way.

[pclayton]

hrothgar, on Oct 15 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 15 2007, 10:54 PM, said:

I think its time the Women's team made a statement to the press about their actions. Maybe they don't regret a thing, or perhaps they think in retrospect they think it showed a lack of judgement. Some explanation is in order.

I don't think that any of us has a "right to know".

If I were a member of the USA1 and I thought that the USBF or the WBF was actually considering any kind of sanction, I'd be lawyering up.
Moreover, there is no way in hell that I'd be making any kind of public statement prior to consulting with said lawyer.

If I were to issue any statement, it would probably be through a lawyer.

Given the idiotic nature of the sanctions that some folks are recommending, it would be foolish in the extreme to make statements to the press.

Personally I never suggested any type of sanctions, but I can understand those who would want to sanction the team.

Let them consult with their lawyers. I'd bring in a good PR person while they are at it. God knows they could have used some handling before this little stunt. Its very common to issue statements after the fact when you make a public gaffe like this, even if you say, "Something is forthcoming, but we have no comment now".

I would guess that if the USBF threatens sanctions that some sort of public announcement would be forthcoming as a component of a comprehensive settlement.