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Live from Shangai !

#16 User is offline   nikos59 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 02:25

I will try (but no promises) to post the lin files at my page within the day:
It is more difficult than usual because of the time difference and also because
files tend to get corrupted with funny characters and they need an extra
vetting which is done manually and is very time-consuming.

For the moment (as round 2 is coming to close) Round 1 is up:

http://www.sarantako...7/2007-wtc.html
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#17 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 02:49

goose, on Sep 29 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

Hi
May we assume that live scores will be available from all the matches?

DG

Live scores seem to be up at:

swan games

with all the matches updating board by board mid round, and the leaderboard updating as well board by board.
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#18 User is offline   mrdct 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 02:51

goose, on Sep 29 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

Hi
May we assume that live scores will be available from all the matches?

DG

We may, but nobody dares mention the name of the provider.

The are some links to the provider in question at http://www.ecatsbrid...nghai/links.asp
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
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#19 User is offline   nikos59 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 03:59

Not having a blog, I will possibly post some hands from Shangai here:

http://www.sarantako...ge/shangai.html

For the moment there are two of them.
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#20 User is offline   cjames 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 09:21

nikos59, on Sep 30 2007, 04:59 AM, said:

Not having a blog, I will possibly post some hands from Shangai here:

http://www.sarantako...ge/shangai.html

For the moment there are two of them.

Nice :D :rolleyes:
Squeeze me
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#21 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 09:49

mrdct, on Sep 30 2007, 08:51 AM, said:

goose, on Sep 29 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

Hi
May we assume that live scores will be available from all the matches?

DG

We may, but nobody dares mention the name of the provider.

Actually I think the reason is that almost all of our vugraph commentators have enough common sense and good taste to understand that it would be inappropriate to use BBO as a vehicle for advertising companies that compete with BBO.

In addition I suspect that most of these people have enough humility to realize that they may not know the whole story. I would expect them to talk to me (or Roland or Uday) directly if they wanted more information. Trying to publicly embarass BBO with sarcastic uninformed posts on BBO's own Forums site is not a good way to make friends with the people who set the policies that you apparently object to.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

#22 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 10:31

Our matches Monday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

Round 4:
8 pm Sunday Los Angeles, 11 pm Sunday New York, 05.00 Monday Paris, 4 am Monday London, 1 pm Monday Sydney
Brazil v Sweden, Netherlands v Canada, Egypt v Poland

...

Round 5:
11:20 pm Sunday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney
Canada v USA1, England v Germany (VC), USA1 v France (SB)

...

Round 6:
2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney
Italy v Norway, USA2 v Brazil, Netherlands v France (VC)
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
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#23 User is offline   mrdct 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 21:28

fred, on Sep 30 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

... almost all of our vugraph commentators have enough common sense and good taste to understand that it would be inappropriate to use BBO as a vehicle for advertising companies that compete with BBO.

...trying to publicly embarass BBO with sarcastic uninformed posts on BBO's own Forums site is not a good way to make friends with the people who set the policies that you apparently object to.

It all sounds a tad petty to me.

The name of the provider of the real-time scoring service is plastered all over the WBF website, the Daily Bulletins and the EcatsBridge (WBF Secretariat) website. Of course for its extensive and valuable contribution to the online coverage of the event, BBO's name is also well publicised in those same places.

Does a commentator providing a link to a webpage with real-time comparisons of what all other tables have done on the board in play really pose such a risk to BBO's market-share? I seriously doubt it. The quality of the BBO product is without parallel and a casual wander over to the "competitor" website quickly confirms this with very small player and spectator numbers and a really difficult to follow interface. But I don't think anybody would question the fact that this "competitor" does online presentation of real-time scores really well.

I'm sure most, if not all, BBO commentators are regularly looking at the real-time scores of other matches to either add flavour to their commentary or simply to satisfy their interest in how things are going in other matches.

I'm fully aware that there is quite a lot of background to this issue to do with access to data feeds and deals which may or may not have been done with certain bridge bodies, but my only concern is to optimise the viewing experience for the spectators; whose experience is surely enhanced by having access to real-time scores.

I wasn't trying to publicly embarass BBO, which is obviously free to set its own policies and make its own decisions about how it conducts its business. I was merely trying to be helpful to a forum member (ironically called "goose") who was seeking to get access to real-time scores, but as I was aware of the policy of not mentioning that provider by name I did so via an indirect link from ecatsbridge. I acknowledge that there was a hint of sarcasm in the way I expressed myself for which I apologise.

I hope the BBO Forum remains a place where bridge fans can freely discuss developments in the online presentation of bridge events without fear of being hammered if they say anything non-complimentary about BBO or its products and policies.
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
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#24 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 23:32

fred, on Sep 30 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

Actually I think the reason is that almost all of our vugraph commentators have enough common sense and good taste to understand that it would be inappropriate to use BBO as a vehicle for advertising companies that compete with BBO.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Without knowing anything about anything, :P

I find it odd that I saw more than one commentator directing vugraph viewers to the other site providing running scores by providing direct link to that location, and yet my interpretation of this statement makes me think that they should not be doing so.

Seems to me that is a lot more "advertising" for the other site (when multiplied by number of users watching) than any post here would ever be.

jmoo.
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#25 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2007-September-30, 23:46

Any one know what happened in the Canada-Netherlands match that was on Vugraph (I saw the last half but didn't see anyone say anything about a penalty)? It seems from the score that they got 18.5-10.5 VP scores for an IMP differential of 61-45. I assume the result was 19-11 and both teams were given a 0.5 VP penalty for something. Was that for time penalty. or some infraction, or what?
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#26 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-October-01, 04:48

Our matches Tuesday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

Round 7:
8 pm Monday Los Angeles, 11 pm Monday New York, 05.00 Tuesday Paris, 4 am Tuesday London, 1 pm Tuesday Sydney

Indonesia v Egypt, Poland v USA1, England v USA2 (VC)

...

Round 8:
11:20 pm Monday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

USA1 v China, Egypt v Norway, France v USA2 (SB)

...

Round 9:
2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

Brazil v Italy, Indonesia v Netherlands, France v USA2 (VC)

...

I am happy to announce that we will be offering expert commentary in five languages Tuesday. English, French, Indonesian, Polish and Chinese.

Roland
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
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#27 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2007-October-01, 08:34

mrdct, on Oct 1 2007, 03:28 AM, said:

fred, on Sep 30 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

... almost all of our vugraph commentators have enough common sense and good taste to understand that it would be inappropriate to use BBO as a vehicle for advertising companies that compete with BBO.

...trying to publicly embarass BBO with sarcastic uninformed posts on BBO's own Forums site is not a good way to make friends with the people who set the policies that you apparently object to.

It all sounds a tad petty to me.

The name of the provider of the real-time scoring service is plastered all over the WBF website, the Daily Bulletins and the EcatsBridge (WBF Secretariat) website. Of course for its extensive and valuable contribution to the online coverage of the event, BBO's name is also well publicised in those same places.

Does a commentator providing a link to a webpage with real-time comparisons of what all other tables have done on the board in play really pose such a risk to BBO's market-share? I seriously doubt it. The quality of the BBO product is without parallel and a casual wander over to the "competitor" website quickly confirms this with very small player and spectator numbers and a really difficult to follow interface. But I don't think anybody would question the fact that this "competitor" does online presentation of real-time scores really well.

I'm sure most, if not all, BBO commentators are regularly looking at the real-time scores of other matches to either add flavour to their commentary or simply to satisfy their interest in how things are going in other matches.

I'm fully aware that there is quite a lot of background to this issue to do with access to data feeds and deals which may or may not have been done with certain bridge bodies, but my only concern is to optimise the viewing experience for the spectators; whose experience is surely enhanced by having access to real-time scores.

I wasn't trying to publicly embarass BBO, which is obviously free to set its own policies and make its own decisions about how it conducts its business. I was merely trying to be helpful to a forum member (ironically called "goose") who was seeking to get access to real-time scores, but as I was aware of the policy of not mentioning that provider by name I did so via an indirect link from ecatsbridge. I acknowledge that there was a hint of sarcasm in the way I expressed myself for which I apologise.

I hope the BBO Forum remains a place where bridge fans can freely discuss developments in the online presentation of bridge events without fear of being hammered if they say anything non-complimentary about BBO or its products and policies.

David,

You are still missing the point.

Do you see advertisements for BBO vugraph on Swan's running scores pages?

Do you think that vugraph commentators on Swan provide the valuable service to their vugraph audience members by telling them "you should really go to BBO instead if you want to watch vugraph"?

How about ads for ACBL tournaments on BBO? Those are our bread and better, but Swan runs ACBL tournaments also and they include advertisements for these tournaments on their running scores pages. I suppose you think we shouldn't care if some of our ACBL regulars see one of these ads through a link we provide and decide to start playing on Swan instead of BBO?

Do I think Swan should be advertising for BBO? No, of course not, even though doing so would clearly help "optimize the viewing experience for the spectators" (your words).

Yes, there is also some history involved here too (I will not discuss the details publicly) that makes me even less eager than I would normally be to allow Swan ads in BBO. But the bottom line is that BBO and Swan are competitors. It doesn't matter that, at this point in time, BBO has a dominant position in the market. I don't care if Swan's vugraph audiences or ACBL games are much smaller than ours or if you think their software is inferior. It doesn't matter how much damage you (or I) think might result if we started sending our viewers to web pages with ads that are specifically designed to take our paying customers away.

What matters is that businesses that compete with one another do not advertise for one another. End of story.

Hopefully I don't have to convince you that we care a lot about promoting bridge and providing a high-quality free service to vugraph fans from all over the world. But I refuse to commit suicide in order to achieve this goal or to get involved in trying to speculate as to the extent to which I might cripple myself with a failed suicide attempt.

Finally, BBO Forums will remain a place where you can freely discuss issues even if your posts are critical of BBO. If such posts make a valid point in a constructive manner, you may even get a response from me like "you are right there is a lot of room for improvement here". But if such posts are rude, sarcastic, intended embarass to BBO, or simply nonsense, you deserve to get hammered.

I am unlikely to start such an exchange, but if I think someone else has then I will defend myself.

Thanks for your apology re sarcasm. Consider it accepted. I believe you that you were not trying to embarass BBO. I apologize for suggesting that you had.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

#28 User is offline   wojela 

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Posted 2007-October-01, 12:53

Dear David

I know Fred very well. He is a true gentleman, a person which will hurt nobody. I know that his ( or Uday) software is perfect to showing results. I also know that providing Jasio Romanski (Polish programmer) software is far more better than Swan. Fred and Jasio were responsible for the European Championships in Warsaw. We organised 12 tables and results appeared in a flash. You are remember this broadcast. I am sure. Everybody knows who is playing there was a recording of all hands. It was possible to find everything on one page. It is a former perfect graphics. All, together with bridge VIP praised Fred and Jasio.

David, if you want to know the answer why do they chose Swan, ask WBF.
I believe that you are a smart guy, and you already know the answer.

Ela Wojciechowska - wojela
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#29 User is offline   mrdct 

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Posted 2007-October-01, 21:49

The real-time scoring for last year's European Championships was one of the best I've ever seen and I would agree that it is well ahead of Swan's product. As I think everyone would agree, being able to browse around real-time scores on a second computer or in another window significantly enhances the viewer's vugraph experience. It's unfortunate that the provider of real-time scoring at this Bermuda Bowl has some apparent baggage vis-a-vis the relationship with BBO.

The situation of competing businesses "advertising" for each other isn't without precedent in relation to a number of broadcast sports. An example would be football (of various versions) where in most places broadcast rights are split-up amongst several TV networks. These TV networks generally have pre-game shows that will preview matches for an entire round that will, of course, include matches to be shown on other networks. These shows also feature highlights from matches previously shown on other networks and, in Australia at least, this is always with the other TV network's logo sitting in the corner. These TV stations find a balance between promoting a match which is going to be on a rival TV station (and potentially losing ratings) and having an incomplete preview show that will have lower ratings if it doesn't cover all matches. I believe the TV executives take the view that the viewers are going to watch the match they want to watch regardless and that it's better to provide a more comprehensive well-rating preview show and bear risk of providing some free publicity for a match being shown by a competitor.

I know this isn't exactly the same scenario as vugraph coverage of a bridge event, but I would've thought that better coverage (that may come at the expense of providing some free advertising to a competitor) will lead to increased audience numbers which will lead to increased patronage of BBO's pay-services such as ACBL tournaments. But, of course, Fred and his new well-credentialled business partners know a hell of a lot more than I ever will about how to run a successful online bridge service and I'm sure there are completely sound arguments for minimising the amount of free advertising for competitors that comes through vugraph commentary.
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
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#30 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-October-01, 23:27

Our matches Wednesday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

Round 10:
8 pm Tuesday Los Angeles, 11 pm Tuesday New York, 05.00 Wednesday Paris, 4 am Wednesday London, 1 pm Wednesday Sydney

Italy v Argentina, South Africa v Poland, USA2 v New Zealand (VC)

...

Round 11:
11:20 pm Tuesday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

Norway v USA1, Sweden v Netherlands, Japan v Germany (VC)

...

Round 12:
2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

USA2 v Italy, Australia v Indonesia, USA2 v China (VC)

...

So far we have provided commentary in English, French, Polish, Indonesian, Chinese and mixed Scandinavian. Wednesday we will be adding Japanese.

Roland
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
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#31 User is offline   geller 

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Posted 2007-October-02, 00:02

One point. Many BBO viewers may not know that by clicking on MOVIE they can see the bidding and play for all of the boards that have already been played. I suggest that commentators inform the specs of this at least once each match. (In a recent broadcast in Japan I found out even some of our commentators didn't know this.)

-Bob
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#32 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-October-03, 06:25

Our matches Thursday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

Round 13:
8 pm Wednesday Los Angeles, 11 pm Wednesday New York, 05.00 Thursday Paris, 4 am Thursday London, 1 pm Thursday Sydney

Poland v USA2, Brazil v Netherlands, Italy v Canada (SB)

...

Round 14:
11:20 pm Wednesday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

USA1 v Brazil, Egypt v Italy, France v USA1 (VC)

...

Round 15:
2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

China v USA2, Argentina v USA1, China v Australia (VC)
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
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#33 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-October-04, 05:58

Our matches Friday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

Round 16:
8 pm Thursday Los Angeles, 11 pm Thursday New York, 05.00 Friday Paris, 4 am Friday London, 1 pm Friday Sydney

Netherlands v Italy, USA2 v Germany (VC), Canada v USA1 (SB)

...

Round 17:
11:20 pm Thursday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

Indonesia v China, Norway v Poland, USA1 v Italy

...

Round 18:
2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

China v Norway, South Africa v Argentina, Poland v France (SB)
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
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#34 User is offline   jonottawa 

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Posted 2007-October-04, 20:39

How 'bout giving the Canadian women some love? They're the comeback kids in the Venice Cup and haven't gotten any airtime on BBO.
"Maybe we should all get together and buy Kaitlyn a box set of "All in the Family" for Chanukah. Archie didn't think he was a racist, the problem was with all the chinks, dagos, niggers, kikes, etc. ruining the country." ~ barmar
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#35 User is offline   geller 

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Posted 2007-October-05, 01:04

We don't get no respect!

The Japanese open team has a reasonable shot at qualifying (9th place as I type this), but hasn't been on VuGraph once. Whereas the Japanese ladies team, starring in "voyage to the bottom of the league tables" HAS been on Vugraph.

Go figure
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