BBO Discussion Forums: Becoming an expert - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Becoming an expert How have people moved up fastest?

#1 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2007-September-09, 22:59

I was wondering how it is that people here became experts. Obviously there is some natural talent required, but what did people here do to advance from being a good bridge player to one of the top players in their region/country?

Was it bridge books, mentors, experience, or hanging around in these types of forums soaking up knowledge?

How about at the table? What did you work on hardest to advance your game?

What advice can you give someone to fully develop their talent in the quickest time possible?
Chris Gibson
0

#2 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2007-September-10, 00:58

CSGibson, on Sep 9 2007, 11:59 PM, said:

What advice can you give someone to fully develop their talent in the quickest time possible?

Read, play, talk about bridge with good players. There is really no special secret here, just put in the time.
0

#3 User is offline   matmat 

  • ded
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Joined: 2005-August-11
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2007-September-10, 01:29

i just click on the little thing in my profile and change it to "Expert." Voila!

seriously though, just as justin said, play, talk, read, watch good players, ask questions...
0

#4 User is offline   Gerben42 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,577
  • Joined: 2005-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erlangen, Germany
  • Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
    Nuclear power

Posted 2007-September-10, 01:42

Don't hide behind your mistakes but analyze them.
If partner messes up, think how YOU could have helped.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
My Bridge Systems Page

BC Kultcamp Rieneck
0

#5 User is offline   jdeegan 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,427
  • Joined: 2005-August-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Economics
    Finance
    Bridge bidding theory
    Cooking
    Downhill skiing

Posted 2007-September-10, 05:31

:P
1. find a tutor or mentor who is an expert and possibly a sometime partner and a resource you can resort to for lessons - avoid like the plague 'lessons' from mediocre players - BBO forums are an excellent resource for getting expert opinions on difficult hands you will encounter

2. play a lot, competition on BBO is excellent - much better than most club games

3. find a regular partner and develop a bidding system - almost any system will do

4. read a good selection of bridge books & magazines - buy Mike Lawrence's series of computer lessons - all of them are worthwhile

5. work on the basics - learn to count hands - to watch and interpret the fall of the spot cards in the play of a bridge hand - learn the myriad of dummy play themes (e.g. strip endplays) - learn card play conventions

6. try to master the psychology of the game - play each hand one at a time - coax the best effort out of your partner - read your opponents - learn to concentrate intensely w/o pressing too hard

7. after the game, go over the hands and identify mistakes - try to determine areas where you are weak and work to improve (e.g. dummy play or slam bidding)

8. enjoy yourself - bridge is a hobby, not a job
0

#6 User is offline   dake50 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,211
  • Joined: 2006-April-22

Posted 2007-September-10, 06:14

ideegan is correct. I prioritize thus
1. Mentor/teacher Schooled by Lawrence/Pavlicek would be great.
2. Read from many top authors. They will stress counting, counting, counting. Then inferences from counting.
3. Establish a partnership. Develop feedback analyzing results/hands. Find a student of the game not a social partner, OK with any results, but work for best, real valuable critique.
4. Play serious bridge, not the 'lets try this on club' game.
0

#7 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2007-September-10, 08:07

Gerben42, on Sep 10 2007, 02:42 AM, said:

Don't hide behind your mistakes but analyze them.
If partner messes up, think how YOU could have helped.

Not to confuse with: when you mess up, ask how partner could have helped.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#8 User is offline   keylime 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: FD TEAM
  • Posts: 2,735
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville, TN
  • Interests:Motorsports, cricket, disc golf, and of course - bridge. :-)

  Posted 2007-September-10, 10:56

I agree with the above, with 1 addition: humility. As you progress to the higher levels you're going to have your good and bad days.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
0

#9 User is offline   SoTired 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,016
  • Joined: 2005-June-20
  • Location:Lovettsville, VA

Posted 2007-September-10, 11:27

[This advice assumes that you have good skills, but are not a genius card-shark]

Count and concentrate on EVERY HAND. Count out each and every hand. Treat each hand like it was life and death. Picture all 4 hands. Get into that habit on every hand. Even when the hand is over and you are just waiting for declarer to claim, make sure you know all 4 hands.

If the opps are not sighing and telling you to hurry up, then you are playing too fast. Don't worry about hesitating giving away something. Always stop and think.

Make sure you are counting correctly. You should be counting by outstanding breaks of the 2 unseen hands in all 4 suits. That way you can easily determine what the unseen hands were. (Not just counting cards from unseen hands and certainly not by counting each suit to 13).

Pick a good partner of your approximate level and go over the hands at the end of the session. Never discuss hands during the session, but wait until the session is over.

When you feel you have advanced far, pay a top pro to play a few sessions. They will give you insight into thinking about things you did not even consider. You'll be surprised when they don't even mention your obvious mistakes, but talk about poor judgement calls on hands you did not even consider.
It costs nothing to be nice -- my better half
0

#10 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,835
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2007-September-10, 11:33

How to move up the fastest?

As someone who attained 'expert' status relatively late in his bridge career, I may not be the best one to discuss this :P

Altho, the circumstances of my progression in bridge level may help indicate how to do things differently.

1. I began playing duplicate after leaving university.. I had played a couple of sectionals and a couple of regional events while in school but money and time prevented me from doing much. My first job was in a small city with a bridge club and 2 sectionals a year, but 500 miles from any city with any real expert players.

2. A friend of mine was as avid as I was, so until he left town after about 4 years, we really worked on our game, but the lack of strong(er) opponents/partners meant that we got to be the best pair in the area but no better than that.

3. I moved to a much stronger bridge area after 10 years, and began playing with the top two experts in town... and began learning a lot.

4. I then got a chance to play with Alan Graves, one of Canada's top players of all time, and learned still more.

5. Finally, in terms of progression, I got to play with Gord McOrmond, who I consider to have been a strong candidate for best player in the country at the time, and we really worked very hard. He was a very slow player, and I learned a lot from slowing down: I learned to consistently look deeper into the hand than I was accustomed to doing.

So, in summary, I think it took me about 20 years to become an expert, rather than a fairly good player... and I like to think that it would have happened much faster had I been able to play with and, to a lesser extent, against real experts earlier in my career. Reading is great... and I doubt that many people could become expert without a lot of reading, but while it may be necessary, it isn't sufficient... at least, it wasn't for me. Playing up, playing with a partner stronger than yourself is imperative. It is not easy to do... I think you have to find the right player(s) and ask for a game every now and then...don't expect to form a steady partnership with an established expert right away.. he is probably already in one or more and won't be abandoning a proven relationship to play with a less-skilled player. When you do get the opportunity, take full advantage of it. Go for a beer after the game and invite a post-mortem. After games with non-experts, again, see if you can go to a post-mortem over a beer, with the experts and use the opportunity to learn, rather than to show off (a temptation that few bridge players can resist).
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
1

#11 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2007-September-10, 11:57

I'm currently going through a metamorphosis in my career.

I've made the conscious decision to stop playing in club games, unless its a significant event like a NAP qualifier or a STAC. I believe very sloppy habits develop if you are playing against a weak MP field on a consistent basis. I wasn't happy the way I played (especially bid) in the regional on Friday, and there are areas that I need to improve on.

I have two set online weekly games to practice with two partners. This is in preparation for San Francisco.

I would expect my posts here will drop by 80% :unsure: . In exchange, I expect to spend about an hour a day on my partnership notes and bidding. :(
"Phil" on BBO
0

#12 User is offline   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,306
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2007-September-10, 12:04

If you get a bad result, make sure to blame it on partner. Be quick about this so partner doesn't have a chance to blame you.

If you have an awkward hand to bid, pick any bid you want. After the hand, insist that your call "shows your hand" and that "it's standard."

Never apologize for any mistake you might've made. If you go down in a contract others are making, blame "the field" or insist that you "took the percentage line."

If partner tries to argue with you about a hand, make sure you yell louder than he (or she) does. Throw in a few choice insults to shut partner up.

If your results are bad, never play with partner again. Bad-mouth partner to everyone you know as "someone who doesn't want to win" or just "a bad player."

Learn the names of some famous first-rate players. Talk about these players as if they're your close friends, even if you've never met them. If you make a questionable decision at the table that doesn't work out, claim that you're "following Hamman's rule" or "going with Meckstroth's advice."

If someone asks to play with you, ask them for money. Post pro rates on your home page. Insist that you only play pro in local events even if this is not actually the case.

If opponents make a good play against you, accuse them of cheating.

Refuse to play against anyone who doesn't play very standard methods (if possible). Insist that they are trying to confuse your partner with their bidding (obviously an expert like yourself would never be confused). Accuse them of "ruining the game for new players."

Play weird methods. Don't disclose them. If people complain that your bidding doesn't match your explanations, insist that "you took a position." If people ask for detailed explanations, say "it's just bridge." If people complain that you're "ruining the game for new players" or that your methods are inconsistant with your complaints about the methods of others, insist that your system "has been around forever" and was invented by Goren or Culbertson or one of the other great bridge players from long ago.

Look for weak games. Encourage your club to turn away any good players who aren't club regulars. Be rude to anyone who appears to know what they're doing. Whenever possible, brag about your good results and many wins, and don't mention which events you played in.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,562
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2007-September-10, 12:09

Jlall, on Sep 10 2007, 01:58 AM, said:

CSGibson, on Sep 9 2007, 11:59 PM, said:

What advice can you give someone to fully develop their talent in the quickest time possible?

Read, play, talk about bridge with good players. There is really no special secret here, just put in the time.

I agree with Justin, though I would have repeated "play" a few more times. :( And analyze your mistakes and try to correct them. "Never make the same mistake twice" is good advice, although not always easy to follow. B)

Not that I'm any kind of expert at this game. :unsure:
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#14 User is offline   KungFuChkn 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: 2007-September-10
  • Location:Wandering the great plains...

Posted 2007-September-10, 12:30

Quote

If you get a bad result, make sure to blame it on partner. Be quick about this so partner doesn't have a chance to blame you.

If you have an awkward hand to bid, pick any bid you want. After the hand, insist that your call "shows your hand" and that "it's standard."

Finally... some advice that I can follow and which will surely yield results.
1

#15 User is offline   ArcLight 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,341
  • Joined: 2004-July-02
  • Location:Millburn, New Jersey
  • Interests:Rowing. Wargaming. Military history.

Posted 2007-September-10, 12:44

Adam, you left out one:
Almost always pull your pards penalty doubles.


>Refuse to play against anyone who doesn't play very standard methods (if possible). Insist that they are trying to confuse your partner with their bidding

Play weird methods. Don't disclose them.


While I agree with Adams post :unsure: , I do think if you are going to spring some weirdo home grown system on the opps you should suggest a few defenses.
We played a pair, I said we play "2/1 Standard Count /Attiture 4th best leads".
During a hand I asked about their signaling.
They said "Its complex"
I was annoyed at that remark. If its that complex, then be ready to explain it or direct me to a URL where I can read it. Instead of giving it a little at a time. "Oh yeah , if such and such ahppens then its X not Y".

They didn't really explain much. At one point I asked if its a Precision variant and they said sort of. While they used Full Disclosure, I was still unsure about if it was possible to hold certain hands.

They got some good results because we couldn't belive what they were bidding. Ending up in 4 spades down 3 (undoubled).
I supposed it was a worth while experience in that anything that broadens your horizon is worthwhile. But I sure didn't enjoy it. I felt it was random, and difficult to draw inferences and visualize the hands.

They played poorly also. So I came away with the impression "since we stink lets use a home grown system that confuses people, and we can do ok against Intermedaites".
0

#16 User is offline   keylime 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: FD TEAM
  • Posts: 2,735
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville, TN
  • Interests:Motorsports, cricket, disc golf, and of course - bridge. :-)

Posted 2007-September-10, 13:23

With me, I'm like Phil - very few club games due to the bad habits that can be formed.

I agreed with tempo and a few pro lessons; I get quite agitated at the "play faster" crowd.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
0

#17 User is offline   matmat 

  • ded
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Joined: 2005-August-11
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2007-September-10, 14:00

awm, on Sep 10 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

If you get a bad result, make sure to blame it on partner. Be quick about this so partner doesn't have a chance to blame you.
CHECK

If you have an awkward hand to bid, pick any bid you want. After the hand, insist that your call "shows your hand" and that "it's standard."
CHECK

Never apologize for any mistake you might've made. If you go down in a contract others are making, blame "the field" or insist that you "took the percentage line."
CHECK

If partner tries to argue with you about a hand, make sure you yell louder than he (or she) does. Throw in a few choice insults to shut partner up.
CHECK

If your results are bad, never play with partner again. Bad-mouth partner to everyone you know as "someone who doesn't want to win" or just "a bad player."
CHECK

crap. by this definition i am already an expert.
0

#18 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2007-September-10, 14:11

Gibson, I started by reading and studying a lot, practicing a lot too on the process. I reached a good level and then came the most difficult step: to be able to concentrate and keep up my optimum level of play for 3 hours. That requires being able to forget bad results, not to nag pard, be relentless.

If you have some talent, the read/study/practice part is easy to do. The difficult part will be to be a tough competitor. This pard is always complicated and never over.
0

#19 User is offline   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,306
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2007-September-10, 14:24

Okay, some more serious advice for people who actually want to be good at bridge:

(1) Play lots of hands. This really can't be said enough. Expert players vary widely as to how many books they read, what kind of methods they play, their demeanor at the table, etc. But all of them have played lots of hands. I don't believe that cutting way down on your play in order to read bridge books or study system notes is going to help (contrary to what some others have said).

(2) It's certainly true that playing with a good partner helps a lot more than playing with a lousy partner, and playing against good opponents also helps more than playing against lousy opponents. But I don't buy that "playing against bad players makes you worse." It's important to learn how to do well against bad players because even in a major event there will often be a bunch of bad players in the early stages. Certainly there are sometimes inferences that can be made against good players that fail against bad players (and vice versa), but the majority of hands are simply play, lead, defense, and hand evaluation problems which are more or less valid regardless of opponents skill level.

(3) Learn how to be a good partner. This includes things like acknowledging that you make mistakes and trying to improve as a pair rather than convince partner that you're a better player than him (or her). While being a good partner won't exactly "make you a better player" (there are plenty of skillful players who are bad partners), it will help you get good players to partner you... which will both help you improve more quickly and help your results.

(4) Don't spend too much time messing around with weird systems. It can be fun to play unusual methods, and it can also improve your results. But it doesn't generally improve your skill level. If your goal is to learn, it helps to play fairly normal stuff so you can more easily discuss your decisions with experts and get their opinions. Chances are, if you ask Ron Smith (for example) what bid you should've made in your Moscito auction he can't help you. Also, the more time you spend reading/thinking about weird methods the less time you're likely to spending learning the stuff you really need to know. It does help at some point in your development to spend a little time playing a weak notrump or a strong club system, to better learn how to defend those types of methods, but don't make this your priority or spend all your time developing your home-grown relay methods (at least until you're already an expert and are trying to win some big event where you need every edge you can get).

(5) Keep in mind that bridge is a game of percentages. Don't result hands, don't agonize too much over decisions that just didn't work out. Sometimes you make a bad opening lead, or you don't drop the singleton king. If you can see some reason why the play you took is not the percentage play then try to incorporate a new rule into your play/defense. If it seems like just "rub of the green" then shake it off and move on. If you can't tell, try asking some strong players what they think. Also, try to keep an open mind about things and remember both the times it worked and the times it didn't -- a lot of people seem to have blinders for the times their favorite convention or opening lead was a pathetic failure and only remember the dazzling successes, whereas a good player will try to remember both and figure out which really outweighs the other.

(6) Don't overanalyze a particular hand. Solving double-dummy problems usually won't really help you become a better declarer. Remember that you're looking for plays you can actually find at the table, and that most hands don't have 100% lines. On the other hand, solving single dummy problems is much more likely to be helpful.

(7) Try to make sure that you play as many hands as possible when you're well rested and able to play your best game. Usually playing when you're "out of it" leads you to make basic mistakes and just get frustrated in general. It also discourages partner -- you want partner to have confidence in your play.

(8) Move to a new area. This is kind of silly, but many people have commented on it. People generally tend to judge your skill level based on the first time they play with or against you. Once they've done this, it's hard to convince them to change their opinion. Of course, this is more of "how to get people to think you are good" rather than "how to actually improve" but having people believe you're a good player tends to help you get on better teams or find better partners, which in turn can help you actually improve.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#20 User is offline   Halo 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 2006-June-08

Posted 2007-September-10, 14:41

I have found:

1. At MPs, whatever my impression of the session, there was almost always 5-10% or more available if I had played well - particularly defended better.

2. At IMPs, whatever I thought of a match, there were always opportunities to make life more difficult for opponents and to react more boldly to partner's attempts to find the best result.

If you can consistently concentrate, but stay mentally relaxed and objective, you will rapidly be a better player than nearly anyone.
1

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users