Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?
New age method? New suit not so invitational?
#1
Posted 2007-April-12, 06:19
Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?
#2
Posted 2007-April-12, 06:34
If playing with a pickup partner and no agreement to play the above "reverse flannery by responder", I guess I would follow SAYC rules where a new suit by responder is forcing. So if I was stuck on this auction with these limitations, I would "pass" 2♦.
#4
Posted 2007-April-12, 06:44
you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.
And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).
With kind regards
Marlowe
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#5
Posted 2007-April-12, 07:18
Even if 2♥ was specifically defined as showing a weak hand like this, I would still prefer to pass! I want to stop bidding on this misfit as soon as I can.
Incidentally, if you want "new age", for me (playing "Siege" or my variant of Polish Club) the 2♦ rebid would deny four hearts. Problem solved.
#6
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:15
P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 07:44 AM, said:
you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.
And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).
With kind regards
Marlowe
Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!
#7
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:22
P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 06:44 AM, said:
inv. values (8 loosers).
Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)
#8
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:31
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:
Pass. Seems clear-cut.
Why?
Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.
So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.
So many experts, not enough X cards.
#9
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:33
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 09:15 AM, said:
P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 07:44 AM, said:
you can either pass or bid 2H,
opener knows your a passed
hand, i.e. if he believes chances
are not existing, he will pass 2H,
give preference to 2S or rebid
diamonds.
And being a passed hand, you have
inv. values (8 loosers).
With kind regards
Marlowe
Granted there are 8 losers for a trump fit. The problem is that with a 7 loser opener, pard will likely accept and you will be one trick short. The LTC evaluation does get a downgrade for the lack of intermediates here.....2 good cards and then blech!
Hi,
A opener holding 7 loosers is a
min opener (*), which means he will
not accept game with any 7 looser
hand.
Opener knows I am passed hand,
if he can envision game oppossite
a passed hand, game will have play.
With kind regards
Marlowe
(*) You may say min opener in 3rd seat?,
no, but a min opener in 1st and 2nd seat.
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#10
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:37
bid_em_up, on Apr 12 2007, 09:31 AM, said:
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:
Pass. Seems clear-cut.
Why?
Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.
So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.
Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster
The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?
#11
Posted 2007-April-12, 08:40
cherdano, on Apr 12 2007, 09:22 AM, said:
P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 06:44 AM, said:
inv. values (8 loosers).
Even when you are using a bad valuation method, you should downgrade for shortness in partner's suit. (If you treat this as an 8 loser hand, you are treating it the same as if you had just found a heart fit with partner's 1st suit being clubs.)
Ok. Would I invite, in case I would
not have been a passed hand? No.
I.e. I dont claim the hand is worth a
normal invite, but on the other hand,
the hand has some playing strength,
assuming we find a fit.
... and the partial in hearts / spades may
be better than the partial in diamonds,
because we may play a 5-1 fit.
All I am saying is, that you can introduce
hearts, because risk is fairly small and you
may even reach game and game is still possible
if you find a fit in a mayor, it depends a lot
on the required strength for a 3D jump rebid.
But you can also pass.
With kind regards
Marlowe
PS: In another post someone mentioned that
opener may have raised with 3 cards in spade,
if your partnership does this, than the upside
potential of a 2H bid goes down, if you rarely do,
than 2H gets more attractive.
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#12
Posted 2007-April-12, 10:15
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:
P - P - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦ - P
??
Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?
Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.
#13
Posted 2007-April-12, 10:56
#14
Posted 2007-April-12, 12:13
jdonn, on Apr 12 2007, 08:15 AM, said:
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:
P - P - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦ - P
??
Playing modern 2/1, local club game. What is your call and why?
Just one in a series of countless examples of why rebidding the minor should show 6, as I'm always telling my European and South American friends who love to do it with 5 At least I know if I pass I am not in a ridiculous contract, whereas they will have no clue where they belong.
Those poor depraved people!
Imagine rebidding 2 minor on a 3=4=5=1, and discovering you have TWO 8 card fits, as you languish in your 5-1
#15
Posted 2007-April-12, 13:57
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 09:37 AM, said:
bid_em_up, on Apr 12 2007, 09:31 AM, said:
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 07:19 AM, said:
Pass. Seems clear-cut.
Why?
Partner did not raise spades (and he may do so when holding 3).
Partner did not rebid 1N, which he may do holding 4 hearts.
Partner should hold at least 6 diamonds (normally).
Partner is a 3rd seat opener. He may well have nothing but AKxxxx(x) of diamonds and an outside Q or K.
If I bid 2H or 2S now, I do not want to hear 3D or any # of NT rebid by partner.
So I pass, and hope that he can make 2D.
Exactly. Without the fancier methods, this is more common sense than anything "standard" which might allow for some creativity (in finding ways to get to a disaster faster
The question that I now have is, what kind of hand could raise 1S to 2S with only 3 and with 3-1-6-3, what would be the requirements for the direct raise?
So here is opener's hand.
So the question is, what is the direct raise to 2♠ worth opposite a passed hand versus the 2♦ rebid.
#16
Posted 2007-April-12, 14:24
Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?
#17
Posted 2007-April-12, 14:25
Al_U_Card, on Apr 12 2007, 03:57 PM, said:
With KQ10xxx of diamonds I would rebid 2♦, and I don't think it's a decision.
#18
Posted 2007-April-12, 14:28
Apollo81, on Apr 12 2007, 03:24 PM, said:
Might this be extendable to 1d-1s-2c-2d-2s?
No, the first auction is different since you are still looking for the correct major suit fit. In the second there is not nearly as much reason to introduce a new minor when you could just raise partner's major.
#19
Posted 2007-April-12, 16:43
In answer to the original posted problem, I would pass 2D.
#20
Posted 2007-April-13, 04:48
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
P - P - 1♦ - P
1♠ - P - 2♦ - P
??