[pbleighton]

In a recent poll the following 4 seat hand was presented:
♠
♥ AQJ954
♦ Q9853
♣ K4

Only 3 out of 20+ of us voted for 2H.

What does a 4th seat 2 bid look like to you?
To me, it is 6+ cards, decnt suit, 11-14(usually), no decent 4 card major side suit.

For me, this hand is far from ideal, with a (bad) 5 card minor diamond suit, but I figured a 1H opening would make it too easy to find their spade fit, and finding a diamond fit was tough with a passed pd, especially playing the worst convention in bridge, 1NT forcing.

How would you change this hand to open it 2H?

Peter

[awm]

I play weak twos in fourth seat. Am I the only one?

Basically 2M is a decent six-card suit and about 8-12 for me; not all that different from a vulnerable weak two to be honest. I expect to make 2M, but this is always the weakest hand I would open. Certainly I will open:

KQJTxx
x
Kxx
xxx

in fourth chair. I expect to have a very good chance to go plus, since partner will have 10 hcp or so for me. But I want to discourage partner from bidding game unless maybe holding a big spade fit. I would never consider 2♠ on, say:

KQJTxx
x
AKx
xxx

Since we could easily make game opposite something like:

xx
Axx
xxxx
KQJx

which I would expect to be a pass of a 2♠ opening (I would never bid over partner's 4th seat 2♠ open without a real spade fit).

[hrothgar]

To a great extent, the answer to this question depends on your choice of bidding system. For example:

Assume that I am playing MOSCITO with light openings in 1st and second seat. My 4th preempts end up quite sound since partner (typically) won't have enough for game. For me, a 4th seat 2S will (typically) show a 6+ card suit, concentrated values in the suit bid, and roughly 8 - 13 HCP. I consider something like

♠ AQJT96
♥ x
♦ Kxx
♣ 863

to be protypical. However, I'd also open 2♠ on Adam's second hand.

♠ KQJTxx
♥ x
♦ AKx
♣ xxx

Paradoxically, the hand that AWM suggests as a clear pass over a 4th seat 2♠ opening is precisely the hand type that I'm worried about most: A balanced hand with good values that is slightly too weak for a weak NT opening. This hand type is very common and requires a lot of care. (Personally, I think that using a 2NT advance as a shortness ask works best)

Alternatively, assume that i'm playing some system with hyper sound initial action in 2nd seat. (Think Roth-Stone or some such). In this case, my 4th seat structure needs to protect all those 2nd seat passes. Accordingly, I'll open quite a bit lighter.

[jtfanclub]

Maybe it's just the level of the competition I play against, but my opponents generally have excellent methods to find the other major against a pre-empt, but lousy methods to find a minor.


So when I pre-empt, particularly 4th seat, my question is 'what am I hoping to pre-empt'?

♠ AQJT96
♥ x
♦ Kxx
♣ 863

Switch spades and hearts, and to me, opening it 2♥ is pointless. You're not pre-empting them out of spades, and that's the suit you most want to pre-empt them out of.

Opening 2♠ with this is... OK. Since people don't like going to the 3 level without a known fit, you'll probably take it there, whereas opening it at 1♠ does risk them finding the 3♥ bid.

If the singleton is in a minor, then I think the pre-empt is automatic. It's doubtful that they'll find their minor once you open at the 2 level.

[hotShot]

pbleighton, on Feb 2 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

What does a 4th seat 2 bid look like to you?
To me, it is 6+ cards, decnt suit, 11-14(usually), no decent 4 card major side suit.

Does you SO allow variations of bids depending on position?

Around here at Club level this is not allowed.

[hrothgar]

hotShot, on Feb 2 2007, 07:08 PM, said:

pbleighton, on Feb 2 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

What does a 4th seat 2 bid look like to you?
To me, it is 6+ cards, decnt suit, 11-14(usually), no decent 4 card major side suit.

Does you SO allow variations of bids depending on position?

Around here at Club level this is not allowed.

You sure about that?

In this neck of the woods (North America) the sponsoring authority allows individuals clubs enormous descretion with respect to the set of conventions / treatments that are allowed. Its entirely possible that a local club would chose to ban a partnership from varying their methods based on position, however, I haven't played at any local clubs that would do so. (Indeed, most of the local clubs that I've played in have allowed players much more lattitude with respect to methods than major tournaments)

From what I can tell, a lot of parts of the world permit players to make significant changes in their bidding structures based on what seat they're opening in. I can't point to enormous numbers of pairs who vary their NT ranges based on their seat or, alternatively, use a drury type 2♣ over their third/fourth seat 1M openings. Hell, the ACBL allows players to vary their methods based on seat and vulnerability. In theory a pair could play 16 different systems depending on what seat they were Hell, Goldman and Soloway changes their methods based on whether the OPPONENT'S were vulnerable, playing strong club against vulnerable opponents and 2/1 GF versus NF.

[brianshark]

I will admit I have very little knowledge about the merits of various 4th seat jump openings. I've never read much material on them. (So these discussions on them are interesting and helpful.)

But I do play that the jump shows a decent 6 card suit, and 11-14 points or so. Basically, I wan't to buy the auction, expecting to make, but defining my hand closely enough so that partner can act intelligently to investigate game, or compete over interference.

And I admit that I chose 2♥ as my bid in the other thread, but some of the arguments against it have been persuasive. Particularly that because of my wild shape, my hand isn't being defined sufficiently well for my partner to make informed calls.

[kenrexford]

The usual agreement I have is for a 2-bid in fourth seat to be a hand that is between 1♥...2♥ and 1♥...3♥, meaning a one-suiter (typically 6322) with tweener values (suitable to open 1NT but for the sixth card in the major, perhaps). In other words, covering a difficult hand.

If I had my druthers, I'd use "Roman" in fourth seat (most don't know "Roman," though). 5- in suit bid; 4+ in clubs; 11-15 HCP's. This makes 1M...clubs and 1D...clubs true high-reverses, even if only 2♣ at rebid. Again, another problem hand solved.

I can understand that the "2 1/2" meaning is simply reversed if a "weak two" shows less than this value, such that a bid...rebid now would show a 2 1/2 trick hand. So, largely a matter of preference, I suppose.

[pclayton]

Brian opened a weak 2 at Riverside yesterday. He had ATxxxx, xx, Ax, Axx. I passed with a flat 10. He made 170 on misdefense. Although its never come up my RHO asked and I replied; 11-13 or so.

It will come up again in 2-3 years

[mike777]

I would think the frequency of these 10-14 one suited bids would be more often than that in 4th seat.

[pclayton]

mike777, on Feb 2 2007, 01:49 PM, said:

I would think the frequency of these 10-14 one suited bids would be more often than that in 4th seat.

Not really, because with point count that small, you usually have an opening beforehand.

[gwnn]

I think it should be a "classical preempt", ie 6331/6322, only a King or something better. I mean, this is for me.

I don't like 2 suiters to be sold as 1 suiters...

I like to do it in 3rd seat or maybe 1st seat, but not in 2nd and definitely not in 4th. If I was going to distort my shape in 4th seat, why did I even bother to open?

[pbleighton]

"Not really, because with point count that small, you usually have an opening beforehand."

Yes, I read somewhere that the most frequent NT range in the 4th seat is 14-16.

Peter