[easy]

What card should be returned by the partner of the opening leader. lets assume partner has led a spade and you hold

A742

You win the trick. Now playing 4th best leads you should return your original 4th best card (the card your would have led had u been on lead) ie: the 2.

Had u been on lead with your current holding you would have led the 4 (i know we dont underlead aces but for purposes of discussion lets forget that for now)
When using 3/5 leads does that mean that we should return the 4??? Our original 3 best.

Ok now lets add another factor in the mix... present count. Does that apply when returning pards lead.Or just when following suit on subsequent plays of the suit?
if leading 4th best returning ones original 4th best is indeed present count. (when playing std count signaling methods) Again using the above example after having won the A the return of the 2 shows an odd number of cards. The return of the 4 would show an even # of cards.but if playing upside down count and attitude the 4 would give the correct count signal.
Does that mean we should play upside down signals when leading 3/5 and std when leading 4th.


Help!!! The more i think about it the more befuddled i become.

[inquiry]

I don't know if this will help you or not, but this is what I do.

I give frequent count (not always of course). The way I do this is "remaining count". So for instance, if I originally held four cards in a suit, I would not automatically return "original" fourth best, but whatever card I would lead from a holding of 3. I am using the 4/2 best leads so from A742, I would lead the 2 if on lead, and if I won the ACE at trick one, I would return the 4 from 742. I also play this way when following suit to give count. Assume I held [S] K842 and partner lead the suit, and I covered the Q from dummy with the K. When I eventually signalled my legnth in this suit (assuming I get a chance), I would signal a holding of 3 cards (remaining count) instead of original count.

I realize your description is "standard" treatment, and with a partner with whom I have not discussed all of this, I would of course play standard. However, I have found "remaining count" works better for me... especially when combined with 2/4 leads (I will address those in your other thread).

[easy]

Quote

I don't know if this will help you or not, but this is what I do.

I give frequent count (not always of course). The way I do this is "remaining count". So for instance, if I originally held four cards in a suit, I would not automatically return "original" fourth best, but whatever card I would lead from a holding of 3. I am using the 4/2 best leads so from A742, I would lead the 2 if on lead, and if I won the ACE at trick one, I would return the 4 from 742. I also play this way when following suit to give count. Assume I held [S] K842 and partner lead the suit, and I covered the Q from dummy with the K. When I eventually signalled my legnth in this suit (assuming I get a chance), I would signal a holding of 3 cards (remaining count) instead of original count.

I realize your description is "standard" treatment, and with a partner with whom I have not discussed all of this, I would of course play standard. However, I have found "remaining count" works better for me... especially when combined with 2/4 leads (I will address those in your other thread).

remaining count and present count are synonymous and is the normal approach (i think) to giving count when following suit. I think what you r telling me is that when u r playing upside down signals u return upside down present (remaining) count? Certainly not unreasonable. But is that a partner ship agreement or std approach with upside down signalers. (my favorite method of signalling btw)

[bglover]

This is just for a laff, easy, but honestly, it was these issues that led me to drop UDCA from my carding options. I could never figure out what the count was even in a suit after partner won a trick and then made a return.

Since I am very count-oriented on defense I found it really difficult to make good decisions... too many unclear leads gave me the wrong hand count.

I know many love UDCA and I am sure it has its advantages, but instead of confusing the oppostion i found it was consusing me!

[inquiry]

Quote

remaining count and present count are synonymous and is the normal approach (i think) to giving count when following suit. I think what you r telling me is that when u r playing upside down signals u return upside down present (remaining) count? Certainly not unreasonable. But is that a partner ship agreement or std approach with upside down signalers. (my favorite method of signalling btw)

My understanding of what is "standard" (definition of standard is "standard american") is that you signal original count. Let's modify your example a little... you hold A7542.. win the ACE what do you return?

Standard treatment is to return the correct original card... from 7542 would return the 4 (original 4th best). 3/5 people would return either the 5 (original third best) or the 2 (original 5th best).  This is "original count" and allows your partner to apply, for instance, the rule of 11 to the 4th best card you return (assuming you didn't hold A74 tripleton of course, but rather A754).

I find the rule of 11 on the return not all that useful. And I rather get a very useful count. Playing 2/4th best leads, I would return the 5 from 7542 and partner, not seeing the 42 and knowing I have one card higher than the 5 would know from the bidding and signalling that I have a 5 card suit originally.

I do play UDCA about half the time (I like it), although didn't mention it in my post, as I dealt with returned cards not standard (follow suit) signals. What I said is that if I tried (and failed) to win a trick on the first round, the next card I played would show "remaining count." I didn't say how I would show it. My example was I held K842. Let's see how this signal would work.. Opening lead goes to my king and declearers ACE.

When I next get a chance to play, playing standard signals (both count and "original holding") I would play the 8 or 4 to signal an even number of cards. Playing standard signals but "remaining count" I would play the H2 to show an odd number of cards remaining. (either K2 Kxx2 or Kxxxx2 originally). Likewise playing UDCA, you have two ways to signal your original holding. You would play the 2 if you are showing "original count" (of an even number of cards), or you would play the 8 or 4 to show the remaing count of an odd number of cards.

So you have to consider two issues. 1) Are your signals normal or UDCA? And 2) are you signally the number of cards remaining in the suit or the number of cards you originally held. My preference is UDCA and remaining (instead of original) holding. However, I will play it however my partner wants...just as long as we agree...

BTW, with no agreement, I assume the opposite of what I normally play... standard signals and original count.

[easy]

Quote

This is just for a laff, easy, but honestly, it was these issues that led me to drop UDCA from my carding options. I could never figure out what the count was even in a suit after partner won a trick and then made a return.

Since I am very count-oriented on defense I found it really difficult to make good decisions... too many unclear leads gave me the wrong hand count.

I know many love UDCA and I am sure it has its advantages, but instead of confusing the oppostion i found it was consusing me!

Dont give udca up so easily steve. I resolved the issue ages ago.......... my pard and i return normal present count. ie: original 4th best. For me this was the easiest thing to do. It may not be consistent with  my other count signals and leads (3/5 in suits) but there is no confusion. with 2 left we return the highest and with 3 left we return the lowest.(assuming of course that that is the correct bridge play)with 4 left (original holding of 5) we return original 4th best.

For those that have never thought about it all of these returns r indeed present (remaining) count. ie low high with odd , high low with even.

[bglover]

I gave it up as a practical matter.. I have three different partners that insist on UDCA and they each have a different lead method. Since I could not get them to standaridize leads (one leads 3/5, with top of 2, one leads bottom of 2 and one leads top of 3) I often times wasn't getting a count until the 3d lead of a suit, which is just plain silly in my estimation, and makes defense near impossible.

Altho I will play them if someone absolutely insists, given my druthers, standard count is much easier (for me anyway) no matter what set of leads I am using. This problem simply goes away.. whatever small advantages some people claim for UDCA are outweighed by this one HUGE one, and I don't find the tradeoff acceptable.

[inquiry]

Quote

I gave it up as a practical matter.. I have three different partners that insist on UDCA and they each have a different lead method. Since I could not get them to standaridize leads (one leads 3/5, with top of 2, one leads bottom of 2 and one leads top of 3) I often times wasn't getting a count until the 3d lead of a suit, which is just plain silly in my estimation, and makes defense near impossible.

Altho I will play them if someone absolutely insists, given my druthers, standard count is much easier (for me anyway) no matter what set of leads I am using. This problem simply goes away.. whatever small advantages some people claim for UDCA are outweighed by this one HUGE one, and I don't find the tradeoff acceptable.

Steve, I must be confused. I don't understand the relevance of what kind of carding you play (standard or udca) to the leads to your confusion. That is, let's assume high gives even count... instead of low. What differnece does the opening lead (and whatever goes along with that) have to do with the second (or third card) that gives count? I mean, when the count card is acutally played (if other than lead), if it is high it means one thing, if it is low it means another... I don't see how their can be a possible difference in the situation you pointed out.  Can you give specific example where it is possible to give a standard count after the opening lead where you can't give a udca count?

[bglover]

Sure.. the easiest example is with the partner who leads top from 3 (i really really hate this by the way but he insists).

What does his 2d lead tell me if we are playing present count after the 1st lead? Well, I can usually deduce that it was top of 3 but not always... Whereas if he leads low from 3 (like the rest of the world) and then top of remaining 2 I never have any confusion.

Let me clarify something tho.. It is really the combination of non standard leads (three partners with three sets of preferences) with UDCA that is causing the problem. If I could get all 3 to agree to the same lead conventions (I cannot, I have tried), then I have no problem with UDCA and present count.

By insisting on standard leads (I don't care if it's 3/5 leads or 4th best long as I have been informed beforehand) and standard carding I never get lost... I don't have to remember who likes what how.. It is for MY clarification that I want this.. the mass of confusion of who likes what lead from what sequence is just maddening for me.

[inquiry]

Well... sure, top of nothing leads are well worth what their name implies...  nothing. Top of nothing

• helps declearer place the cards (even the spots) which can kill the defense
  
• doesn't help you decide if partner is getting a ruff (doubleton or tripleton?) or even 2, 3 (4) cards in the suit
  
• doesn't help you get a full count on the hand
  
• are not worth a lot other than making sure your partner doesn't return the suit at notrump.

But this quote(in yellow) leads to what caused my earlier confusion... What does his 2d lead tell me if we are playing present count after the 1st lead? Well, I can usually deduce that it was top of 3 but not always... Whereas if he leads low from 3 (like the rest of the world) and then top of remaining 2 I never have any confusion. I think the world uses UDCA when following suit, not leading it. So the lead of the 2 later, just like the lead of the top at first, has nothing to do with UDCA signals.

The problem you are experiencing (top of nothing) will reoccur until  you can educate your partners who play it (or have them really explain its advantages, because heaven forbid, I can't see many).  I NEVER play top of nothing, and for exactly the reason you are dealing with now. Even MUD is silly if (and only if) you play high from doubleton (cause if  you lead the 3 from 432 then play the 2 next, did you have 2 or 3?).  Sounds like you need to do what i did a long time ago, and put your foot down. Accept fourth best (even from junk) or 3/5 best (even from junk) and high-low with doubleton specifically. Or... do like I did, try to convince people to lead second/fourth best.

After you get your leads worked out and then UDCA versus standard is no big deal. (BTW, I play UDCA, but have no really strong preference... UDCA, standard....are almost equally effective if  you choose to use them... and know when not to use them). The single real advantage to UDCA is when you want to signal you like the suit but can not afford a high card. Playing UDCA you can smuggly play your low card knowing you sent the signal  you wanted. Using standard you have to fret a while then play low and "hope" your partner can work out you had to signal low "incorrectly" (this is were your obvious discomfort comes in) because you really liked the suit but couldn't afford a high card (I am just kidding about the fretting to pass unauthorized information like this ... but then I have seen this happen all too often to standard signal players.. that, and the other error where people incorrectly signalling come on with the very spot card need to set the contract). Playing UDCA, when you hate the suit, you can always afford a high spot card (even if only the 4 from 432).

[JRG]

Quoting from my favourite reference on this topic (Defensive Signals by Marshall Miles):

Upside down signals only apply the first time the suit is played. Suppose partner leads a heart and you hold A852. You win the ace and, if you return the suit, you should lead the deuce. You would also return the deuce from A86542. The basic philosophy is to treat four and six card suits the same way, just as you treat three and five card suits the same way.

Suppose you win the ace but shift to another suit. The next time the heart suit is played, you should play the deuce - the same card you wouild lead. This is called "present count." With an odd number of cards left, you play your lowest card.

Suppose partner leads low from K10xxx, dummy has two small, you have AJx or AQx. If you win the ace and return your small card or follow suit later with your low card, you will block the suit. So, the correct play is your remaining honor. This is standard present count, as distinguished from upside down present count. It is not practical to play upside down present count.