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One question about Gazzilli

#1 User is offline   cnszsun 

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Posted 2006-August-27, 03:37

I've read some articles about Gazzilli and was considering to combine with my 2/1 system.
In standard 2/1, 1M-1NT, forcing 1NT bidder may have maximum balanced hand 10-12HCP, so 1M-1NT-2x-2NT will show this kind hand.
If you are going to use gazzilli, after 1M-1NT-2C, do you think it's better to respond 2d and reserve 2nt response as other meaning or the other way, keep the 2nt the same meaning as original.
Thanks.
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-August-27, 09:08

2 as positive seems the best idea for me. 2NT might come in handy to show both minors and signoff. If opener rebids 2M (showing the weak version), you can still bid 2NT as an invite, no need to hurry.
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#3 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-August-27, 10:21

2 is best - give opener space to unwind the hand. As free noted, 2NT is useful to help out in the less-than-positive sequences - those tough hands with a singleton/void in opener's major.
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#4 User is offline   Elianna 

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Posted 2006-August-27, 12:42

I haven't played Gazilli in a 2/1 setting, Adam and I play it with SA. I've found that the 2NT rebid by responder (showing a nonfit and the minors) really useful, and has won us boards (we mainly play matchpoints).
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#5 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 09:56

cnszsun, on Aug 27 2006, 09:37 AM, said:

I've read some articles about Gazzilli and was considering to combine with my 2/1 system.
In standard 2/1, 1M-1NT, forcing 1NT bidder may have maximum balanced hand 10-12HCP, so 1M-1NT-2x-2NT will show this kind hand.
If you are going to use gazzilli, after 1M-1NT-2C, do you think it's better to respond 2d and reserve 2nt response as other meaning or the other way, keep the 2nt the same meaning as original.
Thanks.

Usually 2NT is used for weak (0-7 hcp) misfit hands (no tolerance for major), seeking a preference in a minor.

If you have a balanced invite, just go via 2D.
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#6 User is offline   arrows 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 13:42

where to find complete notes for this convention, thanks
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#7 User is offline   cnszsun 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 19:12

arrows, on Aug 29 2006, 03:42 AM, said:

where to find complete notes for this convention, thanks

I found the relatively detailed notes here: http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm. It's italia, but quite readable.
The question i raised also come from there, it seems that notes are based on 2/1 system and forcing 1NT. 2NT is used to show balanced hand in the notes.
In addition, a gazzilli FD file is already in BBO's convention database, you may have a look at it.
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#8 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 19:16

You can use google translate on the site, such as:

google translate of web page
'All you are is mean / And a liar, and pathetic, and alone in life / And mean, and mean, and mean, and mean ... And all you're ever gonna be is mean / Why you gotta be so mean?' Taylor Swift
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#9 User is offline   cnszsun 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 19:24

In fact, i have another question about the notes posted here: http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm
It said, 1M-1NT-2C will show 5M and 4+ if it's 11-16HCP, I don't know how this can be done. With 5332 hand, you have no good solution. So i'm planning to using 2C show only 3+s.
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#10 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 19:31

From what I had looked at, the Italian style was to pass 1NT with 5-3-3-2s, hence their 2 rebid showed 4+s or 16/17+. This meant a system hole with 13-14 5-3-3-2s opposite 11-12 balanced, which often produce good games. Certainly one can play the bid as 3+s.

Did you see the Gazzilli vs Bart (remember those Japanese monster movies?) board in the US trials.

See board 54 here

At one table, 2 was passed since 2 would be Bart, and responder did not want to push the bidding up to 3 on a possible misfit. At the other table 2 could not be passed since it was a version of Gazzilli.
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#11 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 19:45

This was very much a matter of judgement. Since 2clubs could be only a 3 card suit it was quite the choice as opposed to bidding 3D(Bart) over 2c which would be 6+ and less than invite.
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#12 User is offline   cnszsun 

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Posted 2006-August-28, 20:03

It's a very instructive hand in the system:
x Axx Axxxxx xxx
after 1S-1NT-2C*: in gazzilli, you can bid 2d (8+HCP, system required), but if we reduce one or two point with same shape, like x Axx Kxxxxx xxx, you will face the same dilemma, 2S or 3D? You even don't have the pass option.
Michael Sun

#13 User is offline   Poky 

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Posted 2006-August-29, 01:34

cnszsun, on Aug 29 2006, 03:03 AM, said:

It's a very instructive hand in the system:
x Axx Axxxxx xxx
after 1S-1NT-2C*: in gazzilli, you can bid 2d (8+HCP, system required), but if we reduce one or two point with same shape, like x Axx Kxxxxx xxx, you will face the same dilemma, 2S or 3D? You even don't have the pass option.

In my opinion, Garozzo's structure is the best:

1-1NT
2:
2= 8+
2= 5+, weak (usually misfitting in spades)
2= 2, weak
2NT= 5+, weak (usually misfitting in spades)
3= 6+, weak (usually misfitting in spades)

This way, you can bid 2NT with 1354 and 1255 and safely stop in 3 when opener holds a bad hand with clubs.

1435/1444 shapes remain a problem, probably a 2 rebid working best here (or a faked GF with 6-7 HCP).
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#14 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2006-August-29, 01:51

1- Weak misfit hands are occasionally a problem with Gazzilli. As Elianna ha pointed out, the problem is less acute if the partnership does NOT play 1NT forcing, because opener can pass 1NT, and because most responder's weak hands with the minors are removed.
I do not really have stats about how bad Gazzilli scores in these misfit partscore sequences.
All I can say is that, in my limited eperience, Gazzilli is geared towards gaining in hands where:
......a. opener has slam prospects (especially in the 1H-1S unlimited sequence), or
......b. opener is in the 15-17 range without a decent rebid (either underbid at level 2 and risk a pass, or overbid a bad suit at the 3 level).


2- when responder has 12 hcp, italian style is to just bash into games (even if opener is light), rather than inviting. So the 2NT invite sequence basically reduces to 11 hcp hands without support for the major


3- In the example given by cnszsun, some players would try to rebid 2H with a 3 card suit rather than risking a 2S or 3D call.
Responder's 2H rebid used to guarantee a 5+ card suit in the earliest versions of Gazzilli, but lately more and more people require only a 4+ card suit, catering exactly for misfit hands.
Not that this avoids disasters altogether, but at least stopping at the 2 level is less likely to get doubled.
In the specific hand, the 2H bid on a 3 card suit allows opener to rebid 2S with a minimum 5-x-x-4 hand.
Of course, I know that on many hands this will backfire (please spare me all the worst case scenarios :rolleyes: ), so is life !
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#15 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2006-August-29, 04:22

cnszsun, on Aug 29 2006, 03:03 AM, said:

It's a very instructive hand in the system:
x Axx Axxxxx xxx
after 1S-1NT-2C*: in gazzilli, you can bid 2d (8+HCP, system required), but if we reduce one or two point with same shape, like x Axx Kxxxxx xxx, you will face the same dilemma, 2S or 3D? You even don't have the pass option.

In the Garozzo version Poky omitted that you can bid 3 with 6 diamonds, 8-10 HCP in this auction.

You can get a good (English) write up of Gazilli in the Ambra system notes on Daniel O'Neill's site.

Paul
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