[mike777]

There may be many reasons to be worried about NK
1) 4-14 nukes?
2) Working missiles that can reach and kill millions in Japan and SK?
3) 5000 tons of nerve gas
4) A state that has starved to death millions of its own

Now I read how if you have triplets you must turn them over to the state.

Out of all of this what I have found most scary is that millions, tens of millions, of people can be so cowed that they choose life in this state over death or trying to kill the state at all costs.


Easy for me to say this living in the USA and not having to pick suicide bombing as my main career choice. My point I am raising is if it can be done in NK I wonder with the right combination it can be done anywhere? I find this thought very scary.

At the very least I do not see the USA or any country for that matter saying, this is too much and worth sending our own children to die for no matter what the cost this must not be allowed to stand! Perhaps we might if we saw a more active rebellion in the NK? To be fair I do not see SK going to war, no matter what the cost over these issues.

For those that may not know the USA did choose to go to war with itself, despite the horrendous costs in lives and treasure.

I think England had its Cromwell.

[luke warm]

i think most of the world is more worried about china's backing of n.k. else this "problem" might not have existed for so long...

i think there are many reasons for the north korean mindset (ie, obey the state)... i think they are culturally predisposed to that, unlike (perhaps) those from more western cultures...

[hrothgar]

I don't know anyone who beleives that North Korea is a happy place to live. I suspect that most folks would be very happy to see a change of regime take place.

The key problem with this all is that there are no good military options. The crucial issue is not whether the US (or Japan for that matter) is capable of launching a unilateral military attack on North Korea. Either country can project enough force onto the Korean penisula to destroy selected military targets.

However, if we do so, you run a very real chance North Korea will destroy Seoul. North Korea has massive amounts of conventional artillary emplacements trained on Seoul. The North Koreans also have a substantial number of chemical munitions. The questions boils down to how many hundred's of thousands of innocent South Koreans are you willing to kill? The US invasion of Iraq destablilized the entire region and lead directly to deaths of 10s of thousands of people. An attack on Korea would be many times worse.

The Atlantic has some interesting pieces dealing with Korea
http://www.theatlant.../200507/stossel

[mike777]

If SK considers NK the same country and they may not, it is the use of the word innoncent SK that gives me pause.

If the citizens of SK have no responsibilty or guilt in the death and the on going subjucation of their countrymen in NK so be it....

It does seem they have voted to go the slow route and hope NK comes to love democracy and money in another 50 years as millions and millions continue to die and triplets are taken from parents.

Another choice would be total war and death is the worth the price.....

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 12 2006, 11:01 PM, said:

If SK considers NK the same country and they may not, it is the use of the word innoncent SK that gives me pause.

If the citizens of SK have no responsibilty or guilt in the death and the on going subjucation of their countrymen in NK so be it....

Lets get this straight...

The US decideds that we need to attack North Korea in the name of nuclear non-proliferation. North Korea responds by leveling Seoul...

In what way are the citizens of Seoul guilty?
How do the deserve to die?

The Korean war ended 50 years ago. Most Koreans weren't even born before the War ended...

In theory, South Korea could have launched another war and tried to bring democracy to the North. However, one would think that recent US experiences in Iraq might have demonstrated that you can't impose democracy with a bayonet.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Jul 12 2006, 03:52 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 12 2006, 11:01 PM, said:

If SK considers NK the same country and they may not, it is the use of the word innoncent SK that gives me pause.

If the citizens of SK have no responsibilty or guilt in the death and the on going subjucation of their countrymen in NK so be it....

Lets get this straight...

The US decideds that we need to attack North Korea in the name of nuclear non-proliferation. North Korea responds by leveling Seoul...

In what way are the citizens of Seoul guilty?
How do the deserve to die?

The Korean war ended 50 years ago. Most Koreans weren't even born before the War ended...

In theory, South Korea could have launched another war and tried to bring democracy to the North. However, one would think that recent US experiences in Iraq might have demonstrated that you can't impose democracy with a bayonet.

Cromwell and Lincoln did....SK has chosen not to or die trying, that does not mean they are innocent as millions and millions will die as they live in comfort, that does give me pause to the word innocent.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 12:03 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Jul 12 2006, 03:52 PM, said:

In theory, South Korea could have launched another war and tried to bring democracy to the North. However, one would think that recent US experiences in Iraq might have demonstrated that you can't impose democracy with a bayonet.

Cromwell and Lincoln did....SK has chosen not to or die trying, that does not mean they are innocent as millions and millions will die as they live in comfort, that does give me pause to the word innocent.

Your analogy falls flat on a couple grounds

1. As the names suggest, the American Civil War and the English Civil War were both "Civil" wars, conducted between members of the same state. North Korea and South Korea are separate countries that enjoy a rather uneasy peace. How do you propose that the South Koreans go an "save" their oppressed countrymen up North? (Please recall that the last Korean War was a highly bloody and destructive draw that killed hundreds of thousands of people. Since then, the North Koreans have militarized their economy even more) How many people are you willing to kill to "save" the North Koreans? How do think the hundreds of thousands of people that will die feel about being sacrificed for the greater good? How is this any different from the behaviour that you condemn in the "Dear Leader"?

2. I hate to break it to you, but neither the Wars that you cite were waged for particularly noble reasons. These were power struggles, plain and simple.

[mike777]

As I said, they may consider themselves not the same country...if they do then that would be a civil war. Millions and millions will die in the next few years as SK chooses to do nothing. Millions and Millions have died in NK the past 50 years. Just as they are tortured and triplets are taken away from the parents.

It does concern me that there seems to be no active rebellion as I stated in my other posts, I just do not think that makes SK innocents.

If you feel the people of SK are innocent and bear no guilt we agree to disagree.

My main point was it concerns me that NK citizens are so passive. Perhaps anyone would be, and that is scary.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 01:23 AM, said:

As I said, they may consider themselves not the same country...if they do then that would be a civil war. Millions and millions will die in the next few years as SK chooses to do nothing. Millions and Millions have died in NK the past 50 years. Just as they are tortured and triplets are taken away from the parents.

It does concern me that there seems to be no active rebellion as I stated in my other posts, I just do not think that makes SK innocents.

Listen, I'm sorry about the triplets... (I question the fact that you seem to be focusing so obsessively on them... Sure, its a cute factoid, but there are far worse things going on in the North)

I repeat once again

What do you propose that we do?

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Jul 12 2006, 05:27 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 01:23 AM, said:

As I said, they may consider themselves not the same country...if they do then that would be a civil war.  Millions and millions will die in the next few years as SK chooses to do nothing.  Millions and Millions have died in NK the past 50 years.  Just as they are tortured and triplets are taken away from the parents. 

It does concern me that there seems to be no active rebellion as I stated in my other posts, I just do not think that makes SK innocents.

Listen, I'm sorry about the triplets... (I question the fact that you seem to be focusing so obsessively on them... Sure, its a cute factoid, but there are far worse things going on in the North)

I repeat once again

What do you propose that we do?

I propose we cross the DMZ one by one untill all the landmines have been used up.