[luke warm]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13272368/

[pclayton]

The Management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.

If you can't, or won't order in English, don't go to this place.

Racism? Maybe. But the guy has the right to run his biz the way he wants, even to his own detriment.

Will there ADA-style legislation that requires businesses to not only provide access to physical handicaps, but also English language-challenged folks?

Welcome to America.

[mike777]

I note the sign says reserves the right to refuse service it does not say we will refuse service. The commentary is not correct, can the press never get it right!

I would never put up that sign and if they did come across racist when I entered I would not eat there. Funny enough there are limits to what a store owner can do in his own store.

[luke warm]

the issue seems to have been brought to a head by the big debate going on re: immigration policy, the fact that nobody wants to take a stand and say that this is an english speaking country (a nat'l language, if you will), and the fact that non-citizens seem to have access to programs that many americans have not

i agree with phil, btw

[mike777]

luke warm, on Jun 12 2006, 06:43 PM, said:

the issue seems to have been brought to a head by the big debate going on re: immigration policy, the fact that nobody wants to take a stand and say that this is an english speaking country (a nat'l language, if you will), and the fact that non-citizens seem to have access to programs that many americans have not

i agree with phil, btw

I do not understand why countries cannot just give back the land they took by force at the point of a weapon.

I saw a relative of Ghenis Khan is living in Florida I just wonder if I can sue and get reparations for his attack and killing of my European ancestors?

[pclayton]

mike777, on Jun 12 2006, 03:48 PM, said:

luke warm, on Jun 12 2006, 06:43 PM, said:

the issue seems to have been brought to a head by the big debate going on re: immigration policy, the fact that nobody wants to take a stand and say that this is an english speaking country (a nat'l language, if you will), and the fact that non-citizens seem to have access to programs that many americans have not

i agree with phil, btw

I do not understand why countries cannot just give back the land they took by force at the point of a weapon.

I saw a relative of Ghenis Khan is living in Florida I just wonder if I can sue and get reparations for his attack and killing of my European ancestors?

Mike - there's hoards of PI attorneys that will take this on. Oh, maybe not, you'd have to try it in a court outside the U.S.

Never mind.

[Walddk]

I can't see how this can be such a big problem. If the owner insists that his customers order in English, the restaurant will shut down very soon because ....

1. Very few speak English in Philadelphia.
2. Very few speak English elsewhere in the United States.

He can hardly run a business that depends on Britons stopping by

I very much doubt that Mr. Vento himself speaks a language that bears any resemblance to English. I'll let Sir Charles Carmichael from the University of Oxford, Oxfordshire, England, be the judge.

Roland

[mike777]

"I note the sign says reserves the right to refuse service it does not say we will refuse service. The commentary is not correct, can the press never get it right!"


I note how terrible the reporting on this story is:
1) They fail to tell you that this is a very famous eatery in Phili, known around the country and world. It is a modest cheesesteak place but very well known.
2) They have refused service to no one.
3) The lines are 20 people deep tonight.

If the USA press can only tell a half story from the middle of America how can they get anything right.

[sceptic]

IF he was a racist he would not have black, coloured and white people serving (look at photo)

why should you not be able to define who you want to trade with?

I wish I could only have english speaking employees, it would make my life easier

I have yet to work with someone who does not speak english that can not get their point across when they have a complicated pay query, yet fail to understand a simple instruction when it suits them

when in Rome do as the Romans do

just my humble opinion as a quite liberated person when it comes to race or colour, does not matter to me, assholes come in all breeds, colours and religions

I think Phil's cafe is entitled to trade as he wishes and I admire his conviction to say what he thinks

to many people are afraid to say what they think as they tend to get judged by others (and who the hell are they to judge someone else)

[Gerben42]

The employees of said restaurant have no obligation to understand anything but English and might be so fed up by hand-and-footwork from customers who will then be annoyed when they get something they did not order that they put up this sign. It is not discriminating to ask people to order in the official language of the country the restaurant is in.

Note however that there are TWO signs and the media combined the two which is possibly incorrect, however even if the two statements would be on the same sign:

As someone who is living in a country where they do not speak my native language let me tell you this: If you move to a new country you learn the local language. Simple as that.

I know of cases where people live in a foreign country for 30 years and STILL don't talk the local language. What's up with that? You don't need to be fluent in the local language but at least learn it and know enough of it to order a cheesesteak. This will come easier for some than for others but if you are living in a country other than your own, your hosts are allowed to have some demands too.

Quote

A city councilman quoted in the paper said the signs were “divisive and mean-spirited.”

Which of the signs? The right to refuse anyone may well apply to drunk, violent, etc. customers. The other one is just a statement and not a demand.

[barmar]

Gerben42, on Jun 15 2006, 09:59 AM, said:

Note however that there are TWO signs and the media combined the two which is possibly incorrect

The way the signs are juxtaposed strongly suggests that they are related, although that was probably unintentional. The "Management may refuse service" sign is pretty common across many establishments, as a CYA statement if they ever need to expel unruly customers. The "Speak English" sign was probably put above it just because that was a convenient space.

If they had just put them in different locations in the store, there wouldn't have been any story.

[helene_t]

mike777, on Jun 13 2006, 01:48 AM, said:

I saw a relative of Ghenis Khan is living in Florida I just wonder if I can sue and get reparations for his attack and killing of my European ancestors?

Good idea. Send a DNA sample to Bryan Sykes, he can identify some of your ancestors and then you just have to prove that at least one of them had suffered from the Mongolian invasion. There are some 70.000.000 living males who are paternal-line decendants of Genghis Khan (Bryan Sykes gives some possible explanations of this in his book "Adam's Curse") so there are probably a few rich ones whom you can keep responsible.

[Walddk]

Gerben42, on Jun 15 2006, 03:59 PM, said:

It is not discriminating to ask people to order in the official language of the country the restaurant is in.

How disappointing Gerben; I am truly disgusted. So if a tourist travelling through your native Netherlands is unable to say "Hello, I would like to order a cheesesteak" in Dutch, you find it perfectly legitimate that the owner tells the customer to go somewhere else.

Excuse me, but that's intolerance of the worst calibre. I speak 7 languages, unfortunately no Dutch, so if you were to decide, you couldn't care less if I could not find a place to eat in Tilburg.

Welcome to Denmark my friend and you will see a completely different attitude. We do not expect you to speak Danish. In my opinion no country has the right to demand that you speak the native tongue, and if you don't comply, it's your own fault. How sad.

Or do you allow any exceptions to your discriminating rule?

Roland

[Gerben42]

Quote

How disappointing Gerben; I am truly disgusted. So if a tourist travelling through your native Netherlands is unable to say "Hello, I would like to order a cheesesteak" in Dutch, you find it perfectly legitimate that the owner tells the customer to go somewhere else.

I didn't mean it that way. A tourist can NOT be expected to know the local language, however if you LIVE in the country that's different - then you should learn the language at least well enough to communicate with the native speakers.

Also I'm sure that the restaurant in question is not refusing service to tourists who do not speak English (although I can imagine they will have trouble trying to figure out what they ordered)

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Jun 15 2006, 01:15 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Jun 15 2006, 03:59 PM, said:

It is not discriminating to ask people to order in the official language of the country the restaurant is in.

How disappointing Gerben; I am truly disgusted. So if a tourist travelling through your native Netherlands is unable to say "Hello, I would like to order a cheesesteak" in Dutch, you find it perfectly legitimate that the owner tells the customer to go somewhere else.

Excuse me, but that's intolerance of the worst calibre. I speak 7 languages, unfortunately no Dutch, so if you were to decide, you couldn't care less if I could not find a place to eat in Tilburg.

Welcome to Denmark my friend and you will see a completely different attitude. We do not expect you to speak Danish. In my opinion no country has the right to demand that you speak the native tongue, and if you don't comply, it's your own fault. How sad.

Or do you allow any exceptions to your discriminating rule?

Roland

In the article it tells you, he doesn't tell them to go somewhere else, he helps them say it in English.

"When a non-English speaking customer showed up at the window a short time later, a clerk patiently coached him through the process. Eventually, both said “cheesesteak.”"

"He said no customer had ever been turned away because of the policy."

It's just misplaced patriotism. I think it's wrong but I also understand his viewpoint. This man has lived somewhere for a long time where only English is spoken, and has never had a reason to learn another language since (I'll assume) he doesn't intend to go around travelling to different countries. He probably has a shop that gets virtually no tourists from other countries. And all of a sudden a lot of people, not just a few but a lot, come to his counter and don't speak English, placing on onus on him that he never intended to have. And frankly, there is a good chance that a number of those people are there illegally.

I still disagree with him, and it's discriminatory (against legal and illegal aliens, not really against tourists [who would probably even enjoy being taught how to say something in English]), but it's nothing worth getting truly disgusted over.

[Gerben42]

Quote

In my opinion no country has the right to demand that you speak the native tongue

Sure, but there is also no obligation to understand what someone is saying in a language that is not official in the country (except perhaps English which is becoming the language of international communication). It is just that in small countries like the Netherlands and Denmark the population and the government realize that it is beneficial to also speak someone elses language to make communication easier.

BTW speaking 7 languages is impressive!

[Walddk]

jdonn, on Jun 15 2006, 08:40 PM, said:

... but it's nothing worth getting truly disgusted over.

It is as I see it. Let's pretend that I speak no English and came to that restaurant in Philadelphia. I wouldn't even be able to understand what it reads on the sign, but I am hungry and I would like to have something to eat.

Should I expect to be served or not after I have made myself perfectly clear by pointing at the dish I like? The answer is obviously yes, and if I was denied, I have every right to be "truly disgusted".

Roland

[inquiry]

What what use to be called a deaf-mute (I understand this is now partially offensive term, but I am sadly unaware of the politically correct term... :hearing and speaking impaired I guess). They can not order in English. In sign language probably (english sign language?). Refusing service to them would be a violtion of the peoples with disabillities act.

Now, having said this, forget about the story. There are plenty of places to get a cheese steak. I will simply choose a different one, despite the fact that no one has ever been denied service. That is what is great about america... He has the right to protest (this is a protest, btw, in support of a movement to make english the official language of the us), and I have a right and plenty of opporunities to get my cheese steaks from somewhere else.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Should I expect to be served or not after I have made myself perfectly clear by pointing at the dish I like? The answer is obviously yes, and if I was denied, I have every right to be "truly disgusted".

Sure. I'm not sure why any restaurant would refuse service to such a customer though.

Quote

What what use to be called a deaf-mute (I understand this is now partially offensive term, but I am sadly unaware of the politically correct term... :hearing and speaking impaired I guess). They can not order in English. In sign language probably (english sign language?). Refusing service to them would be a violtion of the peoples with disabillities act.

I always find it disappointing how words can be misunderstood and then explained in the wrong way. Let me make one thing clear: I am not discriminating anyone and I never meant anything negative and without any other proof I assume this is also true for the restaurant over who just found himself in an unwanted spotlight over a (possibly purposely) misinterpreted combination of signs.

The only thing you might want to disagree with is my statement that if you plan to live in a country for longer that you have to learn the language up to a level so that you can communicate in that language. But that is my opinion and I don't ask anyone to agree with that.

[inquiry]

Gerben42, on Jun 15 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

I always find it disappointing how words can be misunderstood and then explained in the wrong way. Let me make one thing clear: I am not discriminating anyone and I never meant anything negative and without any other proof I assume this is also true for the restaurant over who just found himself in an unwanted spotlight over a (possibly purposely) misinterpreted combination of signs.

Actually there is a video showing the owner talking about this issue. This is not a mis-interpretation of the signs. He fully means people have to order in English. But I doubt he will turn away business, however his attitude and statements agree with the general feeling the signs convey, although it is true that he claims no one has ever been denied servce.

Now I find it ironic the signs are in english of couse. Those who can reead the signs will not have problem, those who can not, will not know of the restriction. Oh well.... It is like I was reading last night about the horrid state of affairs of people who seek psychatic help. IF they admit to it on a job interview, etc, they likely not get a job, so they either become chronic liars or have trouble throught life. Felons are actually thought of higher in polls than people who have had psychological problems. The author ended with a joke, that went like this... "You would have to be crazy to commit yourself to a psychiatic facility." Don't you just love psychiatric humor?