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Building a standard FD versions of systems BBO Ad & bacic, Precision, WJ2005, other

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-September-16, 13:25

Fred has suggested that it would be a good idea to construct standard versions of BBO Advanced, BBO Basic, SAYC, others so that they can be provided by BBO on everyones computer for easy use. It seems clear a community effort of interested people would be required.

I created this forum with an eye towards meetng that goal. Presumably you can each upload files to this directory. If this is abused, I will remove this right, and you will have to paste your "text" files in the body of the messages....

I can see threads on conventions, lke "FD - JACOBY TRANSFER" or yes, "FD = MISIRY", as well as threads where we try to establish agreement on entire standard systems, like "FD - BRIDGE BASE ADVANCED" or "FD - SAYC". This effort will be driven by volunteer effrot.

If you ahve a flavor of a system or convention you want to share, try to upload it and see if that works.. If you uplaod, you may need to change teh extension from *.bss to *.txt or *.lin, this isn't clear to me yet.

If uplaods are not possible, you can post the test of your FD files like this....

*00{BridgeBase Advanced}=NYYYYYYStandard Bridge Base Online Bidding System based upon 2/1 GF
001N=NYYYYYY215-17 HCP can include 5 card major
001NP2C=NYYYYYY508STAYMAN
001NP2D=NYYYYYYA08!H
001NP2H=NYYYYYYA08!S
001NP2S=NYYYYYYA08!Cs

Etc.....

Ben
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#2 User is offline   chicken 

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Posted 2005-September-18, 05:53

i wouldnt mind putting some effort in this work, but i am a little bit afraid, that in the course of develeopment and debugguíng the software will change in that way that the produced files wouldnt be readable/accessable any more.
Kom kit´cha vangar´th, kin patakh´ch vananch, pargh?

If it´s not important to win, tell me, why do they keep records?

(Barcht, Captain of Nir`ch Tyse´th, Klingon Warship)



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#3 User is offline   Tcyk 

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Posted 2005-September-18, 10:04

As a long-time user of OKScript I am full of questions and suggestions.

I don't quite understand if FD will make the bids, alerts, and announcements when you click on a bid or is it a replacement for the convention card?

In OKScript I am able to break the system down into smaller chunks that can be used in different systems. I have built a sizable library of these "chunks" such as Scanian, Precision1C. multi2D, Crash, etc. I then build a complete system using the appropriate subsystems. This ability to create completed systems from smaller files is a very important tool in OKScript.

The disadvantage of my OKScript files on BBO is that I have to use keyboard input and I sometimes bid when I'm trying to chat. The advantage is the small "finger print" When the file is running.

Charlie
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#4 User is offline   Tcyk 

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Posted 2005-September-18, 10:21

I assume FD will be changed so that the opponents do more than just pass. This is necessary to add overcalls and competitive bidding. For example Michael's cue bids, negative doubles, etc.

To get some idea of how big a task building FD files is, look up the number of possible auctions on a bridge deal. The number will stagger you. As I recall, the number of possible contested auctions is something times 10 to the 50th power. Thank god most of these would never occur at the bridge table but it gives some idea of the complexity of building these files. Even a simple convention like 1NT forcing can become a rather large file. Isn't the human brain a wonderful thing?

Charlie
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Posted 2005-September-18, 12:13

Tcyk, on Sep 18 2005, 12:21 PM, said:

I assume FD will be changed so that the opponents do more than just pass. This is necessary to add overcalls and competitive bidding. For example Michael's cue bids, negative doubles, etc.

To get some idea of how big a task building FD files is, look up the number of possible auctions on a bridge deal. The number will stagger you. As I recall, the number of possible contested auctions is something times 10 to the 50th power. Thank god most of these would never occur at the bridge table but it gives some idea of the complexity of building these files. Even a simple convention like 1NT forcing can become a rather large file. Isn't the human brain a wonderful thing?

Charlie

To enter other bids for the opponents (indeed you can even have thme open), simply click the "SETTING" menu item and remove the check mark next to the work "constructive".

Towards "chicken's" concern the file format will change... no worries there, Fred has already said he will make a conversion program if necessary should that happen... so don't be "chicken", help out!!
--Ben--

#6 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2005-September-19, 07:41

Ben, I don't think the file upload works. How should we be able to do this?

Arend
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Posted 2005-September-19, 07:55

cherdano, on Sep 19 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

Ben, I don't think the file upload works. How should we be able to do this?

Arend

You should be able to see a line immediately under the "Post Icons: (not the clickable smileys to the left) entitled "File Attachments". Underneath that line should be a long thin white space where you can enter a file name, along with a "browse" button so you can find the file on your computer. This is the first time I think we have tried to make file attachments possible for all... and this might not be such a good idea :-)

Ben
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2005-September-19, 08:43

I don't see the "File attachments:" thing.
I think the answer might be dependent upon whether you are playing matchpoints (real bridge) or imps (party bridge) --- Shugart23
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Posted 2005-September-19, 08:55

helene_t, on Sep 19 2005, 10:43 AM, said:

I don't see the "File attachments:" thing.

Sigh... I will look into it, but presumably I set it up so files can be attached, but maybe this is only a feature administrators can use. I will look into it.... as an example here is a very rough version of BBO Advanced. IT is no where near complete, and undoubtedly has many mistakes. :-( I really didn't intend on creating the BBO Advanced file myself, so I created this when first experimenting with FD (not wanting to put too much of my system in as at the time I did this, FD wasn't stable... I had access to FD earlier than most forum users).

Anyone with a better version of BBO Advanced FD can email it to me at my username @bridgebase.com and I will substitute that file for this one. Or if people want to edit (that is, fix) this version, we can go that way too....

Ben

Attached File(s)


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#10 User is offline   bhtf 

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Posted 2005-November-29, 18:17

hi everybody (have fun & all you want kindly) alain (bhtf on BBO)
very nice department of bbo forums
but i was not awake when starting (shame on me !)
in the exemple under (thxs for Helene)
i understand quite all
but not the YYYYYYYYY508, the NYYYYY601, and others of same type.
can some of you give me the clues ?
bhtf@wanadoo.fr if possible for not too keep place on this forum.
friendly for all (and others too :D))) "your" bhtf :blink: [kisses of France]

*00{Precision(Forum)}=NYYYYYYSimplified Precison a la Wei. Natural 1!d-opening.Helene-t september 2005 on the basis of BBO-Forum polls
001C=YYYYYYY50816+HCP
001CP1D=YYYYYYY5080-7 HCP or three-suited
001CP1DP1H=NYYYYYY34816-21 Usually 5+ !hs
001CP1DP1HP2S=NYYYNYN601Three-suited
001CP1DP1HP2N=NYYYYYY63-suited short in hearts
001CP1DP1HP3C=NNYYYYY601Three-suited
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Posted 2005-November-30, 16:00

This is code that the program, FD reads. All you need do is copy the entire post and paste it into notepad. Save with a *.bss extension (not *.txt or *.bss.txt), and then FD can read it just fine.

Soon there will be lots of "standard" FD files you can choose from. We have people working on or have fairly complete drafts of the following bidding systems...

An old fashion Goren type card with forcing jump raises and only conventions negative double, gerber and blackwood (yes, that means no Jacoby) essentially complete.

An SAYC FD file as explained in the ACBL booklet on SAYC - due this week

A BBO basic card, which is similar to the SAYC file, but with modern treatments as taught by most of the BIL instructors - will be modified from the SAYC FD file.

A BBO Advanced FD file with the methods described in the BBO Advanced pages elsewhere, with the addition of Fit jumps in compettion and some fit jumps and fit non-jumps by passed hand. Extremely detailed, needs review.

A simplified precison file (hopefully coming soon)

The WJ2005 file prepared initially by Gerben42 and posted in this forum, ready for review and input.

Standard italian (there is a PDF to go along with this FD file), being used already

Standard French -- needs work related to opening above 1NT and competive auctions. Looking for helpers familiar with "standard french".

Acol, we have a volunteer working on one.

We would consider other methods if FD files are prepared. Bridge World Standard, would be a major task, but would be very nice.

WE also need conventions. We have some already posted on this forum (1D-2C gf; jacoby 2NT, ogust over weak 2, keri, modified Ghestem, scanian 1N:2NT raises, two way trial bids). We need more, and some of these need to be completed. The basic idea is to have a list of conventions that people can easily add. You want to play multi 2D? Then all you need do is merge your standard FD file to the convention Multi 2D FD file. Of course, we all know there are many flavors of Multi 2D, those that include strong variants, and ones that don't. Ones that include strong NT, Acol 2 in minor, strong three suiters. We don't promise to post all, but if you built it, we might use it.

If you have a convention in your private FD file that is good, you can 1) make a copy of your FD file with a different name. Delete all the bids (threads) in the copy not associated with the convention. Save the file by that convention name, and send it along to be (inquiry(AT)bridgebase(DOT)com, or post it here like others have done.

And if you would like to see a draft version of any of the FD-based systems above so that you can make comments on the appropriateness of some of the bids, just let me know by email and I will try to get you a copy of the FD file as soon as possible.

Ben
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Posted 2005-November-30, 16:20

Quick note.. Since Bridge World standard is highly defined, we could set up a team of people to work on specific parts of a FD file for BWS...I could see

1NT/2NT/3NT openers (and follow up)
1M openers (and follow up)
1 minor openers (and follow up)
2C opener (and follow up)
2D and higher (not NT) and follow up
Competitive after they open 1 suit
Competitive after they open 1NT or higher

So seven volunteers working on those groupings (and follwoing the BWS write up) could quickly build a system Arend has volunteered to help with such an approach (thanks!!).

ben
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#13 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2005-December-28, 16:57

My partner and I would love to create a FD file for our system, but can we please add a feature to it to support forcing pass systems?

Granted, we are on the fringe, but our system is just as legitimate as any of the popular ones and we are looking forward to using the tool. Not to mention, there's a whole bunch of FP systems out there, prejudices notwithstanding...

Atul
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#14 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2005-December-28, 17:13

akhare, on Dec 28 2005, 10:57 PM, said:

My partner and I would love to create a FD file for our system, but can we please add a feature to it to support forcing pass systems?

Granted, we are on the fringe, but our system is just as legitimate as any of the popular ones and we are looking forward to using the tool. Not to mention, there's a whole bunch of FP systems out there, prejudices notwithstanding...

Atul

I suggest you put a description of your first and second seat passes in your system summary.

You can then define your 3rd and 4th seat "opening bids" as responses to your "opening pass".

Not a perfect solution, but if you pre-alert your opps to your forcing pass system (which would be a nice courtesy in any case), this should work out OK.

Fred Gitelman
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#15 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2005-December-28, 17:17

fred, on Dec 28 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

I suggest you put a description of your first and second seat passes in your system summary.

You can then define your 3rd and 4th seat "opening bids" as responses to your "opening pass".

Not a perfect solution, but if you pre-alert your opps to your forcing pass system (which would be a nice courtesy in any case), this should work out OK.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Thanks Fred -- I already started down that path, but got a little confused along the way :rolleyes: -- maybe I will try and use the other FD files as a reference...

Atul
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#16 User is offline   csdenmark 

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Posted 2006-January-14, 11:26

inquiry, on Sep 18 2005, 08:13 PM, said:

Tcyk, on Sep 18 2005, 12:21 PM, said:

I assume FD will be changed so that the opponents do more than just pass. This is necessary to add overcalls and competitive bidding. For example Michael's cue bids, negative doubles, etc.

To get some idea of how big a task building FD files is, look up the number of possible auctions on a bridge deal. The number will stagger you. As I recall, the number of possible contested auctions is something times 10 to the 50th power. Thank god most of these would never occur at the bridge table but it gives some idea of the complexity of building these files. Even a simple convention like 1NT forcing can become a rather large file. Isn't the human brain a wonderful thing?

Charlie

To enter other bids for the opponents (indeed you can even have thme open), simply click the "SETTING" menu item and remove the check mark next to the work "constructive".

Towards "chicken's" concern the file format will change... no worries there, Fred has already said he will make a conversion program if necessary should that happen... so don't be "chicken", help out!!

Great Ben - I have just been able to enter opps.' interfences.

Please tell me - is it possible permanently to disable "constructive"? It looks like each time I open FD the 'v' is back. I can of course disable when I create(no problem) but it also needs to be disabled to be read it looks like. If not done when reading then it looks like intereference handle is skipped. Any solution possible to that?
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#17 User is offline   A2003 

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Posted 2006-March-14, 21:47

Standard discards. Coded 9 and T
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#18 User is offline   Old York 

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Posted 2008-January-29, 06:23

Hi all

As an Acol player, I tried out the BBO Acol cc, but found a number of errors. Notably in the fourth suit forcing sequences, it looks as though the cut and paste editing has caused these errors.

I have written my own Benjiminised Acol cc (Benji) a system which is very popular in the UK.
Using Benji, Acol players can use weak twos in the majors and can also use strong twos in any suit by opening 2 Clubs (artificial). The 2 Diamond opening bid is used as the artificial game force instead of the traditional 2 Club bid.

My cc can be downloaded from http://OldYorkie.spaces.live.com

Regards
Tony
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#19 User is offline   Tcyk 

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Posted 2008-August-13, 23:50

I still think the FDCC should be able to be broken down into modules that could be called to build a complete system.Some play Bergen, some reverse Bergen, some fit jump shifts. some limit jump shifts, some weak jump shifts, some play mini-splinters. The list goes on and on where the same bids can have different meanings for different people. If each of these were written as an individual module things would be much simpler.

There is another problem with FDCC that needs to be addressed and that is the 1M limit. I've hit it and I know others have. When you start trying to include competitive bidding sequences and different meanings for bids in different positions or vulnerability the file grows quickly. The responses also have to change to accommodate the different positions and vulnerability. File size doubles and triples before you know it.

I know there must be a depository of FDCC somewhere in this form but I can't seem to find them. It seems like someone has surely written a file for Diamond-Major and I have little doubt that Hrothgar has written one for his version of Moscito and Frelling Two Bids. Where do I find these cards? I actually have thought that someone should build an FDCC-Wiki to serve as a depository for FDCC and let the users built, add-to, and correct the cards.
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#20 User is offline   Old York 

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Posted 2008-August-19, 08:16

Actually, FD is broken down into modules

The real problem is that we are failing to update the "Conventions" part of the program, examine C:/Bridge Base Online/Conventions

Bergen/RKCB/Inv Minors and all the other "add-ons" are being neglected because people are trying to develop a fully comprehensive cc to suit their own personal agreements.

The basic convention cards found in C:/ Bridge Base Online/Convcards were never meant to cover such wide-ranging definition.

Alter, if you must, the basic cc but use the "Manage Convention" Button to include your favourite add-ons, this seems to be the way forward to avoid file size problems. The BBO 2/1 card seems to be stand-alone and much duplication is included... Bergen seems to be part of the "basic" card, this cannot be right?

Perhaps we should also re-examine our usage of FD, a convention card is designed to notify oppo, NOT partner. The only Ethical way to use FD is to switch off partner's alerts. Click CONV. > Options... and untick explanations of partner's bids. Imho this should always have been the default setting, and then FD would be accepted by all (as was originally intended)

Tony (Duke of York)
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