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Meaning of this double

#1 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-25, 13:07

1N pass 2D 2S
Pass pass x

The expected spade length for x is closest to:

0-1
1-2
2-3
3-4
4-5
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#2 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-July-25, 14:23

I would think that this double is a balance of power double presumably showing ♠ shortness and at least 7-8 HCP.
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#3 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2016-July-25, 14:33

View Postrmnka447, on 2016-July-25, 14:23, said:

I would think that this double is a balance of power double presumably showing ♠ shortness and at least 7-8 HCP.

I would assume the same.
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-25, 16:24

2-3
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 05:31

Using an optional double in combination with transfer rebids makes a lot of sense here. Optional is probably more useful than takeout even without the transfer rebids although that structure has some issues that need to be sorted out as you need a way of bidding 3♥ competitively as well as constructively.
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#6 User is online   apollo1201 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 15:03

X shows some values but allows partner to convert it to penalties so shouldnt be too unbalanced and too short in S. I guess 2533 is ideal.
15(43) is more risky (unless we're happy defending 2SX), and 35(32) also because partner is less likely to transform and might escape to your 2-cd minor...
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 15:34

I think 2-3 is right. If partner had a giant spade stack, he might have whipped 2S already.
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#8 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 15:55

View Postapollo1201, on 2016-July-26, 15:03, said:

X shows some values but allows partner to convert it to penalties so shouldnt be too unbalanced and too short in S. I guess 2533 is ideal.
15(43) is more risky (unless we're happy defending 2SX), and 35(32) also because partner is less likely to transform and might escape to your 2-cd minor...


It looks more competitive to me. I wouldn't expect P to pass unless he had an unusually good DOR (defence-offence ratio :P).
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#9 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 16:05

Qtx Kxx akxxx qx. Would you pass at MPs?
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#10 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 05:13

https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

Google translate works well enough!

Linking back because the other thread is a Chinese version of this original post.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 05:18

View PostPhil, on 2016-July-26, 15:34, said:

I think 2-3 is right. If partner had a giant spade stack, he might have whipped 2S already.

But maybe we don't play double by opener as penalty?
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 07:12

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-July-27, 05:18, said:

But maybe we don't play double by opener as penalty?


Possible I guess but not mainstream.
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#13 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 07:45

View PostPhil, on 2016-July-26, 15:34, said:

I think 2-3 is right. If partner had a giant spade stack, he might have whipped 2S already.


I am mostly worried that doubling them with 4-1 spades can hardly be right.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 08:29

View PostPhil, on 2016-July-27, 07:12, said:

Possible I guess but not mainstream.

I would have thought that a competitive double (basically 3 hearts and an interest in competing) was at least as popular as pure penalty here.
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#15 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-July-27, 13:01

View PostPhil, on 2016-July-26, 16:05, said:

Qtx Kxx akxxx qx. Would you pass at MPs?


I rarely play MPs, but my instinct is to bid if they're NV, since taking them one off is unlikely to score well. Less sure what I'd do when they're vul.

(But I'm a conservative SOB in the constructive auction, and wouldn't have opened that a 15-17 NT)
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#16 User is offline   vegar56 

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Posted 2016-July-29, 05:50

View PostPhil, on 2016-July-25, 13:07, said:

1N pass 2D 2S
Pass pass x

The expected spade length for x is closest to:

0-1
1-2
2-3
3-4
4-5

2♦ = transfer to ♥ ?
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#17 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-30, 09:31

View Postvegar56, on 2016-July-29, 05:50, said:

2♦ = transfer to ♥ ?


yes
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#18 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2016-July-31, 21:25

Opener assumes 2-5 in the majors and bids accordingly. Responder might have more spades, but that's his business.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#19 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2016-August-02, 00:56

View Postgnasher, on 2016-July-31, 21:25, said:

Opener assumes 2-5 in the majors and bids accordingly. Responder might have more spades, but that's his business.


I agree. This is what Opener will assume when making the initial decision on whether to defend 2♠x.

A more interesting question, worth discussing in any regular partnership, is what Responder's bids of 2NT/3♣/3♦/3♥/3♠ mean instead of double. There is more than one plausible way to play, but as usual the most important thing is to be on the same wavelength as partner.
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#20 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-August-02, 11:43

View PostJinksy, on 2016-July-27, 13:01, said:

I rarely play MPs, but my instinct is to bid if they're NV, since taking them one off is unlikely to score well. Less sure what I'd do when they're vul.

(But I'm a conservative SOB in the constructive auction, and wouldn't have opened that a 15-17 NT)


It was the first round of the finals of the LM Pairs. Pard held this hand but we hadn't explicitly discussed x.

I had xx QTxxx xx AKxx. Declarer had AKJxxx AJ8x void Jxx. It takes a club lead followed by a spade shift to beat it but partner naturally led a high diamond.
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