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Downgrade and pesky opps

#1 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 02:08

A couple of hands debated after our match yesterday.



IMPs. You are first in hand at game all playing 2/1 and 15-17 1NT. Is this a hand that you would downgrade to a 1NT opener?



Unfavourable vulnerability. Your call?
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#2 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 02:13

1) No, I understand opening 1N with some 4333 18's but our honor structure here is okay, no reason to downgrade.

2) I make a takeout double.
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 02:45

This will be unanimous.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 04:03

View Posthan, on 2012-February-13, 02:45, said:

This will be unanimous.

I must admit that I thought the first hand was clearly not a downgrade and would be surprised if anyone did, but a junior(!) opened it 1NT. I think it is wrong if you ever upgrade fourteen counts but then I put the hand through K&R and it only scored 16.5.

The second hand was really an assign the blame. Partner holds ♠A10x ♥xxx ♦KQx ♣J10xx and the +300 from passing the double was poor compensation against game or (a tricky) six diamonds or (trivial) seven clubs that were available.
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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 04:29

1. The only reason to downgrade is that it increases the chance of me ending up declaring the hand :)

2. Going with 4♣ here. Also comes to mind 4♠, but a slam is probably too much here.
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#6 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 05:16

View Postpaulg, on 2012-February-13, 04:03, said:


The second hand was really an assign the blame. Partner holds ♠A10x ♥xxx ♦KQx ♣J10xx and the +300 from passing the double was poor compensation against game or (a tricky) six diamonds or (trivial) seven clubs that were available.

I would blame the person who passed a takeout double with basically the most offensively oriented hand possible (for the auction).
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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 06:22

I have no trouble downgrading the first hand, specially if I don't play transfers over 1♣
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#8 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 07:02

1♣ and 4♣.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#9 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 07:28

1. 1 ♣
2. I would not like to give my partner the opportunity to pass my take out double. I would bid 4 ♣ and take it from there. He may hold KJxx, Kx,Kxx,xxxx and everybody would call his pass obvious.
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 08:16

I think I would bid 1♣ and 4♠ although han's answer to clee suggests the latter is misguided.
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#11 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 08:20

View Posthan, on 2012-February-13, 02:45, said:

This will be unanimous.


I find this unlikely.
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#12 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 08:26

View PostCodo, on 2012-February-13, 07:28, said:

2. I would not like to give my partner the opportunity to pass my take out double. I would bid 4 ♣ and take it from there. He may hold KJxx, Kx,Kxx,xxxx and everybody would call his pass obvious.

What's wrong with playing 3♠X opposite this hand?
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:29

It's all very well to call a double takeout, but if partner is always going to pass the double, then that's not a takeout double, it is a penalty double. If double is really takeout, then partner should not pass when he holds the most offensive hand possible.

To those bidding 4C I ask:

(1) are you certain that partner will think that 4C is forcing?

and rhetorically:

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#14 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:32

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-February-13, 08:20, said:

I find this unlikely.


Has there ever been a unanimous forum thread about doubles? Aquahombre still has to point out that these modern takeout doublers got what they deserved.

No, don't answer that question gwnn, I meant this rhethorically as well.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#15 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:36

View Posthan, on 2012-February-13, 09:29, said:

It's all very well to call a double takeout, but if partner is always going to pass the double, then that's not a takeout double, it is a penalty double. If double is really takeout, then partner should not pass when he holds the most offensive hand possible.

To those bidding 4C I ask:

(1) are you certain that partner will think that 4C is forcing?

and rhetorically:

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.


To me 4C strongly suggests 5-5 in an ok hand. I dont think its forcing but expect partner to raise most of the time with decent values. I play 1N = 8-11 and would expect a raise with any hand with 8 Non spade HCP. Hands with spade ace will be tough for him but you cant have everything.

I like 4S as a bit. It shows a good hand with a spade void basically always, but carriers the inference that you are not 5-5, as with 55 and a v good hand you could just bid 5C. Some might think ths hand does not have enough, but I am not one of them, with ace ace ace, partner does not need much: KJx Kxx Kx JTxxx a routine NT bid where 7C a claimer, and probably this hand would not pull 3sx.

I think 4N is also on the table, one possible agreement is that 4N would show a good hand 64 in the minors here. I have not discussed the meaning of this bid with any of my partners.


I am not so worried about missing slam as much as missing game and picking up a paltry 300, which does not seem unlikely.
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:40

I like the way you are thinking Phil.

Would 4D be forcing? If not, could you be 1372 for your 4S bid?

Could 4NT be a hand like

xx
AQx
AKJ10xx
Ax

(Of course, clee would open 2NT).
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#17 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:41

View Posthan, on 2012-February-13, 09:29, said:

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.


Surely a bad example you can bid 4N naturally over 4S, and that looks like its very good. And 5D will make most of the time diamonds are 3-2. You can test both suits for 3-3, or get a positional squeeze on, by refusing to cash the spade ace too early. What makes you think you are getting enough to compensate you for missing a cold 3N on this board?
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#18 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:48

View Posthan, on 2012-February-13, 09:40, said:

I like the way you are thinking Phil.


I find it very hard to tell when you are being ironic.

Partner has effectively denied four hearts, so this auction is simpler than it would be if partner had doubled 1S or something. Hearts are out of the picture.

I think 4D is NF. I could be persauded otherwise, but seems like I might need it. Would expect partner to raise Most of times he has only one spade card.

I find constructions where I have two spades over 3S a little implausible. What is partner bidding 1N on without three spades, or four hearts, or diamond support worth mentioning, or a club suit worth mentioning? Ax Kxx Kxx xxxxx? possible, but rare.

If I bid 4N over 3S then corrected clubs to diamonds surely I just have a very strong single suiter in diamonds I guess, but I would probably just bid 5D with the given hand.
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#19 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:49

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-February-13, 09:41, said:

What makes you think you are getting enough to compensate you for missing a cold 3N on this board?


I don't think that anybody is getting to 3NT on this board, certainly not the 4C bidders.

If everything is perfect then we take 10 (!) tricks on defense for +1400. Although white against red opponents tend to be crazy, it's quite unlikely that everything is perfect, and we likely score +500 or +800. That's certainly better than 5D on a 3-2 split, and 4NT (admittedly a lot better than 5D) may go down. If partner has that hand I want to double 3S.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#20 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-13, 09:52

View Postphil_20686, on 2012-February-13, 09:48, said:

I find constructions where I have two spades over 3S a little implausible.


I play bridge in the Netherlands. It's possible to find opponents here who bid 3S white against red with only 8 spades. I understand that this is unheard of across the channel.

I was not ironic, I'm definitely going to discuss this hand with my regular partner.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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